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A great problem 'our forefathers' couldn't foresee was that the Constitution protects fraudulent scammer's free speech rights.

Caveat emptor rules supreme. The right to pay $600.00 to learn how to scam the system, organize with your fellow idiots to kneecap the public health systems of the United States that, until lately, achieved the longest life expectancy man has enjoyed.

They've done it. The idiots are turning it around. Women in the US are dying at rates approaching that of 3rd world countries. Anti-mask/anti-vax idiots have the potential to reverse the gains science has made against communicable diseases.

Unscrupulous attorneys prey on the arrogant, gullible ignoratti 'I'm a conservative-leaning civil rights attorney. Where am I going to get any work?' A laugh rippled around the room. 'I put it in God's hands, and all these mandates happened.'

Praise the lard.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/04/09/...

Stupid, ignorant people + unscrupulous lawyers are protected by the constitution to the detriment of the public.
I mean, when it was just a few Christians denying their kids blood transfusions or cancer therapy, no big deal. But now they are protecting the rights of Typhoid Mary to take down God only knows how many lives.

Mendenhall is bullish about the opportunity ' and the money to be made ' for attorneys getting into this area of law. He says a medical malpractice suit involving Covid treatment, which he admits attorneys are still 'figuring out,' could bring in hundreds of thousands of dollars in attorney fees.

'We believe there's a villa in France for the person who can figure out how to sue on remdesivir,' said John Pfleiderer, a lawyer at Mendenhall's firm, during the hospital negligence panel. He was referring to the Covid treatment, approved by the FDA for Covid and recommended by NIH as a treatment option, that some doctors and lawyers at the conference said is harming patients."

Who knew that ambulance chasers would become capable of destroying the public health systems that are responsible for the existence of 8 billion people on this orb?

The forefathers were classically trained...they might well have foreseen it:

[1}I am almost certain that while all men are hard to teach, they are easy to deceive. They learn with difficulty'if they do learn anything'from the few that know, but they are deceived only too readily by the many who do not know, and not only by others but by themselves as well. For the truth is bitter and unpleasant to the unthinking, while falsehood is sweet and pleasant. [2] They are, I fancy, like men with sore eyes'they find the light painful, while the darkness, which permits them to see nothing, is restful and agreeable. Else how would falsehood often prove mightier than the truth, if it did not win its victories through pleasure?

[1] οἶδα μὲν ἔγωγε σχεδὸν ὅτι διδάσκειν μὲν ἀνθρώπους ἅπαντας χαλεπόν ἐστιν, ἐξαπατᾶν δὲ ῥᾴδιον. καὶ μανθάνουσι μὲν μόγις, ἐάν τι καὶ μάθωσι, παρ᾿ ὀλίγων τῶν εἰδότων, ἐξαπατῶνται δὲ τάχιστα ὑπὸ πολλῶν τῶν οὐκ εἰδότων, καὶ οὐ μόνον γε ὑπὸ τῶν ἄλλων, ἀλλὰ καὶ αὐτοὶ ὑφ᾿ αὑτῶν. τὸ μὲν γὰρ ἀληθὲς πικρόν ἐστι καὶ ἀηδὲς τοῖς ἀνοήτοις, τὸ δὲ ψεῦδος γλυκὺ καὶ προσηνές. [2] ὥσπερ οἶμαι καὶ τοῖς νοσοῦσι τὰ ὄμματα τὸ μὲν φῶς ἀνιαρὸν ὁρᾶν, τὸ δὲ σκότος ἄλυπον καὶ φίλον, οὐκ ἐῶν βλέπειν. ἢ πῶς ἂν ἴσχυε τὰ ψεύδη πολλάκις πλέον1 τῶν ἀληθῶν, εἰ μὴ δι᾿ ἡδονὴν ἐνίκα;

-- Dio Chrysostom, Discourses 11.1-2 (tr. J.W. Cohoon) ~100-110 AD

--sutton
they have always been with us. We just (unconscionably) gave them a multiplier with USC 230 and Citizens United

--sutton
they have always been with us. We just (unconscionably) gave them a multiplier with USC 230 and Citizens United

----------------------

The use of that word, "We" apparently establishes you as a member of the elite, apart and above "them".

"Them" are those who have many opinions that differ from the "we" club. "Them" who are ill-informed, un-educated, easily exploited and who lack the immense insights enjoyed by the "We".

Peter Strozk characterized "Them" as "smelly Walmart people". Hillary referred to "Them" as "a basket of deplorables". Either way, the "Them" in this country should just shut up, and obey their betters, right? One party rule would be a paradise.

"The use of that word, "We" apparently establishes you as a member of the elite, apart and above "them".

"Them" are those who have many opinions that differ from the "we" club. "Them" who are ill-informed, un-educated, easily exploited and who lack the immense insights enjoyed by the "We".

Peter Strozk characterized "Them" as "smelly Walmart people". Hillary referred to "Them" as "a basket of deplorables". Either way, the "Them" in this country should just shut up, and obey their betters, right? One party rule would be a paradise."

That isn't anywhere near what he said or implied, but it sounds like insecurity to me.

--sutton
they have always been with us. We just (unconscionably) gave them a multiplier with USC 230 and Citizens United

To USC 230 and Citizens United, add the ubiquitous cell phone video camera and internet. It has enabled the ignoratti to unite as never before.

We are witnessing the uniting the globalization of the ignoratti; bible thumpers, gun nuts, racists and bigots united with anti-science lululemon moms.

That kind of money is like poop to flies for quacks, prosperity preachers and ambulance chasers.

There's no way shrewd monetizers of a market this broad will pass up finding ways to monetize it. A few bucks for a white supremacist wall, a few bucks for Jesus, MAGA schwag and NFTs ... all protected by the Constitution of the USA.

The Justice Departments of the USA are no match for the tidal wave of armed ignoratti being encouraged to attack them.

>>"The use of that word, "We" apparently establishes you as a member of the elite, apart and above "them".

"Them" are those who have many opinions that differ from the "we" club. "Them" who are ill-informed, un-educated, easily exploited and who lack the immense insights enjoyed by the "We".

Peter Strozk characterized "Them" as "smelly Walmart people". Hillary referred to "Them" as "a basket of deplorables". Either way, the "Them" in this country should just shut up, and obey their betters, right? One party rule would be a paradise."<<

That isn't anywhere near what he said or implied, but it sounds like insecurity to me. - Umm

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Fair Enough.

After all, I am a member of "them" and lack the critical thinking skills, and lets also admit basic IQ, necessary to understand the nuanced expressions of the "we".

What makes it even worse is that once a person blunders into the black hole of quackery and misinformation they almost never return...

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this:
If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject
any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested
in finding the truth. The bamboozle has captured us.
It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves,
that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you,
you almost never get it back.' ~Carl Sagan

It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves,
that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you,
you almost never get it back.' ~Carl Sagan

-----------------

Perfect description of the mask nazi's.

bighairymike: Hillary referred to "Them" as "a basket of deplorables".


False, of course. Clinton was specific; she wasn't speaking about some hazy "them".

'You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic...'

bighairymike: Perfect description of the mask nazi's.

How is masking related to 'charlatan power'. Multiple studies have demonstrated that masks reduce transmission of COVID-19:

We find that population mask wearing notably reduced SARS-CoV-2 transmission (mean mask-wearing levels corresponding to a 19% decrease in R). We use the largest wearing survey (n = 20 million) and obtain our estimates from regions across six continents. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2119266119

Blood tests showed the overall reduction in symptomatic infection to be 9%, with the most vulnerable group (ages 60+) seeing a decrease of 35% for those wearing surgical masks. https://egc.yale.edu/largest-study-masks-and-covid...

Do face masks work? Here are 49 scientific studies that explain why they do. https://www.kxan.com/news/coronavirus/do-face-mask...


And speaking of Nazis, I'll be a grammar Nazi here and point out that Nazis is plural, not possessive, so no apostrophe, please.

We" apparently establishes you as a member of the elite, apart and above "them"

"We" as in, "We the People of the United States" - the sole body ultimately empowered to make the rules and thus ultimately the body responsible.

The intent, of course, being "to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity"

That "We"

--sutton

And speaking of Nazis, I'll be a grammar Nazi here and point out that Nazis is plural, not possessive, so no apostrophe, please.

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I originally spelled it with no apostrophe but my spell checker only offer apostrophe version as a correct spelling. And as you know, as a member of "them", I am powerless to think for myself.

And speaking of mask mandates, I loved the period where you had to mask up to go to a restaurant, but were allowed to remove your mask once you were seated. It seems that Covid can only spread at distances higher than five feet above the floor. Now that there is some science.

>>We" apparently establishes you as a member of the elite, apart and above "them"<<

"We" as in, "We the People of the United States" - the sole body ultimately empowered to make the rules and thus ultimately the body responsible.

The intent, of course, being "to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity"

That "We"

--sutton

===================

OK, good point, so who is the "them" in your screed?

"...who is the "them" in your screed?"

From the quotation at the start of my post (bolding added: " they are easy to deceive. They learn with difficulty 'if they do learn anything' from the few that know, but they are deceived only too readily by the many who do not know, and not only by others but by themselves as well

Them

--sutton

"After all, I am a member of "them" and lack the critical thinking skills, and lets also admit basic IQ, necessary to understand the nuanced expressions of the "we"."

I am a member of "them" too. I picked things up as I went along, but I admire those who have better skills and are kind. My entire family is smarter than I am, but I'm also socially awkward, prone to gaffs, and lack self assurance. So I got a lot of ridicule from them, and we aren't close. But I followed your thinking in the FTL thread and you aren't shabby at all.

And speaking of mask mandates, I loved the period where you had to mask up to go to a restaurant, but were allowed to remove your mask once you were seated. It seems that Covid can only spread at distances higher than five feet above the floor. Now that there is some science.

Hint: if having one person wearing a mask provides significant protection to BOTH people in a meeting, and you have people walking around a restaurant, and other people they will walk past sitting there trying to eat their food, can you think of a policy that will both protect people from Covid AND allow them to eat their food?

<can you think of a policy that will both protect people from Covid AND allow them to eat their food?>

Vaccinations?
Seems to work pretty good with Polio.

can you think of a policy that will both protect people from Covid AND allow them to eat their food?

----------------

Yep, the only thing that will always work is to close the restaurant. Short of that, life has risks, such as being out in public in the first place.

And speaking of mask mandates, I loved the period where you had to mask up to go to a restaurant, but were allowed to remove your mask once you were seated. It seems that Covid can only spread at distances higher than five feet above the floor. Now that there is some science.

I have little doubt that some of the things that happened were an over-reaction, possibly even just plain wrong.

Speaking as someone who had 3 extended family members die (within days of each other; family vacation) and 4 more friends-via-career within the first six months, I think a little over-reaction is forgivable in the face of a world-wide pandemic, and I am not so quick to criticize those trying to do something about it. Frankly, I did not see the 'mandates' as terribly inconvenient, especially considering alternatives such as were implemented in other countries, and in light of the freezer-trucks full of bodies as piled up in some cities at the beginning.

But complaining about how horrible it was to be told to wear a mask seems to make some people happy, so help yourself. Meanwhile more than 300 people a day are still dying of the complications of the disease, more than die in car accidents and gun deaths combined .

But not to worry, because, uh, Jesus, apparently.

But complaining about how horrible it was to be told to wear a mask seems to make some people happy, - goofy

-----------------

It's about the government seizing the power to do so, not the mask itself. Using public health is a particular pernicious reason because damn near anything can be rhetorically linked to public health.

BTW, if masks were so damn effective and necessary, then why did we see hundreds of politicians and other celebrities frolicking around out in public without them. Why? Because they didn't drink their own Kool-aid. And why was that? Because they knew deep down what many us in the "them" class knew, that masks were about fealty to the power of the state and not about public health. And one more thing, forcing kids who statistically are damn near naturally immune from Covid was child abuse.

OK, government power is great and flawless, so time to come back with the the old tropes of, "so you're against food inspections" or "speed limits in school zones, etc". reductio al absurdum, bring it.

masks were so damn effective

Masks are damn effective, especially when they are used.


Using public health is a particular pernicious reason because damn near anything can be rhetorically linked to public health.

Nonsense.

But not to worry, because, uh, Jesus, apparently
**

While Allah, continues to deal with Europe.

Personal preference: I was in full lockdown mode quarantine. Loved masking, and loved others masking.

What I didn't like: Snobby Liberals lecturing us to wear masks, but not wearing it themselves as many pictures exposed.

They loved their outings where upscale Liberals got to have a good time, but the waitresses still had to wear masks.

This is why these Central Planners love China and XI so much - soulmates.

They loved their outings where upscale Liberals got to have a good time, but the waitresses still had to wear masks. - wilson

-------------------

Good point. Thanks for this reminder of a prime example of elitism. The "we" demonstrating a small victory towards their goal of exercising dominion over the "them".

BTW, if masks were so damn effective and necessary, then why did we see hundreds of politicians and other celebrities frolicking around out in public without them. Why?

Because there's a huge free rider issue with masks - or indeed, any NPI to control the spread of an infectious disease that reduces the chance of the wearer getting someone else sick, rather than the other way around.

At the time, the weight of the evidence was that masks prevented the wearer from spreading the disease to other people. If everyone wore masks, the disease would spread less quickly through the population - because many instances of transmission would be blocked by the mask.

The problem, though, is that as with any free rider problem, someone can get the benefits of the NPI even if they "cheat" and don't do it themselves. If everyone properly wears a mask, their community will have reduced impacts from Covid. If everybody but one person wears a mask, that's almost certainly still true. It's the sort of thing where there's very little consequence if one person doesn't do the thing, but the benefit ends up being lost altogether if a lot of people don't do the thing.

So selfish and narcissistic people (including some celebrities and politicians) cheat. That doesn't mean they didn't believe that masks helped save lives - they just didn't want to bear the inconvenience themselves.

So selfish and narcissistic people (including some celebrities and politicians) cheat. That doesn't mean they didn't believe that masks helped save lives - they just didn't want to bear the inconvenience themselves. - albaby

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It has been pretty well established that cloth masks were particularly useless. However, cloth masks were a completely satisfactory demonstration of one's compliance. Even an N95 worn around your chin or below your nose would satisfy the Karen's and authoritarians whose "only" concern was public health.

So, as a member of the "them", I must admit that I have limited capacity to sufficiently understand the complexities to run my own life but take pity and bear with me.

It has been pretty well established that cloth masks were particularly useless.

It has been pretty well established now that asking people to wear cloth masks was particularly useless. The better evidence at the time of most of these mandates was that cloth masks were effective, and even now it has not yet been established whether the lack of effectiveness of the mandates is because cloth masks didn't impede transmission or because too few people actually followed the rules.

That does not translate into retroactively claiming that advocates of masking did not believe at the time that masking helped. Or that masking was motivated by any other desire than to improve public health.

It has been pretty well established that cloth masks were particularly useless.

NO! IT HAS NOT BEEN ESTABLISHED AT ALL!!!

That recent study was grabbed and misinterpreted, which the journal editor and the study authors were very quick to point out......for all the difference that made to those who glommed onto the "masks don't work" headlines.

The study looked at whether or not mask MANDATES work to prevent covid's spread in a population, not whether masks themselves do what they are intended to do. And the data appeared to be inconclusive.

(1) "The study was misinterpreted and, when you give it a very quick glance, you see how that would happen," Dr. Jessica Justman, an associate professor of medicine in epidemiology at Columbia Mailman School of Public Health, told ABC News. "It's looking at interventions that tried to promote the use of different kinds of protective equipment, such as masks, and the outcomes are all going to depend on how well people actually adhere to the particular type of protective equipment."

(2) 'Many commentators have claimed that a recently updated Cochrane review shows that 'masks don't work,' which is an inaccurate and misleading interpretation,' Karla Soares-Weiser, the editor in chief of the Cochrane Library, said in a statement.

'The review examined whether interventions to promote mask wearing help to slow the spread of respiratory viruses,' Soares-Weiser said, adding, 'Given the limitations in the primary evidence, the review is not able to address the question of whether mask wearing itself reduces people's risk of contracting or spreading respiratory viruses.'

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/10/opinion/masks-w...

Even an N95 worn around your chin or below your nose would satisfy the Karen's and authoritarians whose "only" concern was public health.

Nonsense. The penis nose meme's were broadly shared across social media... but ignored because jesus big gub'mint mind-control and ivermectin

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