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Author: OrmontUS 🐝🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 2027 
Subject: The changing winds of war
Date: 08/21/2025 7:41 AM
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Over the years, warfare has had many quantum changes which left those fighting “the last war” at a significant disadvantage.

The invention of the stirrup hanging from saddles allowed mobile archers to outflank infantry.

The adoption of gunpowder in the west made the previous invulnerability of castles with high curtain walls and armored carvery counterproductive. The invention of mobile artillery by the Swedish, iron-clad and steam-powered warships with turret-mounted cannons to turn other fleets into useless kindling, the “repeating” rifle and machine gun (along with the use of barbed-wire) to change the battlefield, the airplane providing mobile artillery and reconnaissance, the adoption of armored vehicles, nuclear missiles and so on, were all inflection points in what constituted a new methodology which replaced the previous one when conduction a war.

Since the Second World War, the US has created a major group of industries, employing millions of people (in presumably every state so they are a political necessity) who build ever more sophisticated and expensive weapons and defense systems. A B-2 bomber’s acquisition cost is above $2 billion bucks and an F35 fighter costs $85-100 million. The estimated cost for each F-47 Next-Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) fighter is around $300 million per aircraft. A modern aircraft carrier, like the Gerald R. Ford-class, costs around $13 billion to build. (These costs do not include the research and development or continuing maintenance costs.

The cost of today’s main battle tanks:
1. 1. Type 10 (Japan) – ~9.4 million USD
2. 2. AMX-56 Leclerc (France) – ~9 million USD
3. 3. K2 Black Panther (South Korea) – ~8.5 million USD
4. 4. Challenger 2 (United Kingdom) – ~8 million USD
5. 5. Leopard 2A7+ (Germany) – ~8 million USD
6. 6. M1A2 Abrams SEP (USA) – ~6–8 million USD
7. 7. Merkava Mk4 (Israel) – ~6 million USD
8. 8. Altay (Turkey) – ~5.5 million USD
9. 9. T-14 Armata (Russia) – ~3.7 million USD
10. 10. Type 99 (China) – ~2.6 million USD

The current war in Ukraine is indicating that, at least in theatre-sized warfare, the Ukrainians, and now the Russians, are substituting relatively inexpensive weapons, with ever more AI/autonomous capabilities for expensive weapon systems.

The Russian Black Sea fleet is now in hiding along the eastern shore due to their expensive warships being vulnerable to maritime drones costing $250,000 and even less expensive missiles Russia has lost over 11,000 tanks, over 31,000 artillery pieces and over 23,000 armored vehicles, mostly to inexpensive drone-dropped munitions. (https://www.kyivpost.com/)

Neither side in the war can claim air superiority, mainly due to the vast arrays of anti-aircraft middles on both sides of the border making it non-cost effective to risk multi-million-dollar planes.

Drones are now used instead of aircraft, both as a proxy for airborne artillery and for reconnaissance. While I guess it may be safer and provide a more powerful weapon for a soldier to be inside of a tank than a foxhole, but it is also a vulnerable target.

So, changes in strategy are still taking place (both in offense and defense), but it is clear that given that a modern jet fighter can cost $100M and a sophisticated drone .0025 of that it would be interesting to do a computer study of the offensive effects of a single plane vs. 400 drones – or conversely, how safe that plane would be if simultaneously attacked by 400 sophisticated missiles. This is demonstrated by the inability of Ukraine's F-16 to survive on the russian side of the line of contact or of their Russian equivalents to survive above Ukrainian territory.

While arguments could be made for the ability to “project force” provided by an aircraft carrier, when you evaluate its cost (especially after adding its load of planes and sailors, as well as the “task force” required for its protection), it would be interesting to model what an equivalent response would require in missiles and drones launched from series of more modest craft. It is finally accepted that battleships are largely obsolete and we are merely one navel war away from potentially finding out that the aircraft carrier is no longer cost effective for its mission.

So, why the inertia? When politicians “bring home the bacon” of federal dollars to fund defense plants in their states, it is not to their advantage to look to cut military spending, but rather to have the military spend as much as possible in their districts.

As the US backs off from overt support of Europe, yet forces NATO members to increase military spending, there are a number of possible paths they can take. They can easily/quickly blow off their obligation by buying high-priced US weapon systems (line F-35’s and Patriot systems cost a billion bucks a pop) or they can take a longer-term response by creating European consortiums to design and build weapon systems which are not dependent on the USS, are less expensive and arguably of more closely designed for modern warfare conditions.

In the US, there is a revolving door between military procurement and the defense contractors, supported by politicians who receive vast amount\s of reelection financial support from the defense industry’s lobbyists, so it’s not surprising that there is little incentive to be cost-conscious, but our current administration seems to be hard at work to concern our customer base who, no doubt, are frightened by the possibility of our mercurial behavior cutting off support for their purchases at some future point (not to mention the high market price required to buy our friendship).

Jeff
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Author: OrmontUS 🐝🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 2027 
Subject: Re: The changing winds of war
Date: 08/21/2025 8:02 AM
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https://www.kyivpost.com/post/58678
British Defence Intelligence Update Ukraine 20 August 2025

On 12 June 2025 Russian President Putin reportedly stated that the development and deployment of a separate branch of specific uncrewed systems forces within the Russian ArmedForces was currently taking place.

Open source reporting indicates Russian children and young people are being taught and trained in the operation andtechnical underpinnings of uncrewed aerial systems (UAS) atmore than 500 schools in Russia, as well as 30 colleges with practical training centres. More than 2,500 teachers are reported to have been trained to teach in this field. This forms part of Russia’s Minister of Education and Science Valery Falkov’s May 2024 stated intention to have trained one million UAS specialists by 2030.

Jeff

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Author: Timer321   😊 😞
Number: of 2027 
Subject: Re: The changing winds of war
Date: 08/21/2025 8:47 AM
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This may bear repeating about Russia. The global economy is falling apart, China as well. We are not far behind.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/wage-arrears-mount-...


Wage arrears mount in Russia as hidden unemployment hits record highs

Against the backdrop of a worsening economic situation, wage arrears and hidden unemployment rates are soaring at Russian companies.

Source: The Moscow Times reports this with reference to data from the Federation of Independent Trade Unions of Russia (FNPR)

Details: As trade union monitoring reports, wage arrears rose by 25% in July, reaching 1.7 billion roubles (US$21 million), while the number of workers at risk of dismissal increased 1.5 times compared with last year. The number of workplaces in downtime also grew by one third.
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Author: kbg   😊 😞
Number: of 2027 
Subject: Re: The changing winds of war
Date: 08/28/2025 11:40 PM
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In large scale modern warfare better weapons have generally won the day and no serious military professional in their right mind is going to say...hey, give me some of that low-tech stuff please. A general rule for the US military is that if you lose the little ones it's awful, but you lose a big one and you lose your country as you know it.

While no doubt there are many lessons to be learned from Ukraine, there are a lot to be learned from the current conflict(s)going on in the Middle East. If you take in the full "evidence set" available, I imagine Ukraine would trade weapons with Israel in a nano-second.

Lastly...these things are modeled a lot.

One clear item from both...drones and autonomy in general are here to stay.
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Author: Goofyhoofy 🐝🐝 HONORARY
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Number: of 2027 
Subject: Re: The changing winds of war
Date: 08/29/2025 4:58 PM
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In large scale modern warfare better weapons have generally won the day and no serious military professional in their right mind is going to say...hey, give me some of that low-tech stuff please.

Probably true, but not right. The Viet Cong defeated a far superior force with tunnels, bamboo shoots in pits, and a paltry few munitions. Biplanes with wings of fabric sunk monstrous battleships in World War I, (I am reminded that Kamikaze’s did the same in World War II with outdated airplanes), and there is a story that the Romans defeated somebody or other (not Hannibal) who came charging in on war elephants simply by arranging their soldiers in smaller platoons instead of a great massed line so they could simply “step out of the way” when the elephants rampaged. They also blew trumpets to scare the elephants which made them useless for whatever the other country was. (I forget the details, but have always been a fan of the “little guy” tactics that can sometimes prevail.

I imagine Ukraine would trade weapons with Israel in a nano-second

Yeah, that mystery nuke in the basement would make a big difference.
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Author: kbg   😊 😞
Number: of 2027 
Subject: Re: The changing winds of war
Date: 08/29/2025 11:33 PM
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Apparently we have different definitions of "large scale modern warfare."

Contrary to popular belief, the Viet Cong didn't beat anybody. They were basically wiped out in 1968. North Vietnam's regular army stepped in to keep the war going and after 10 years of futility we finally threw in the towel and the US/Nixon/Kissinger did something very similar to what Israel did to Iran...obliterated N.V.s air defense system and cut off resupplies via force.

I find your biplanes against battleships example arguing fundamentally against the point you are trying to make...a clear case of new tech defeating, decisively old tech, which was extended and definitively proven in WW 2.

Nukes...the ultimate little guy (and big guy) slayer.

To be clear, I'm not saying really determined little guys can't do some amazing stuff and defeat big guys. But history shows that this generally only happens when the war isn't associated with a truly vital national interest on the part of the big guy. When wars are fought at very large scale (meaning key interests are involved) Napoleon's "he with the most battalions wins" dictum is about as close to fact in warfare as you can get.
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Author: sykesix 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 2027 
Subject: Re: The changing winds of war
Date: 08/30/2025 1:07 AM
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Contrary to popular belief, the Viet Cong didn't beat anybody. They were basically wiped out in 1968. North Vietnam's regular army stepped in to keep the war going and after 10 years of futility we finally threw in the towel and the US/Nixon/Kissinger did something very similar to what Israel did to Iran...obliterated N.V.s air defense system and cut off resupplies via force.

They stayed on the battlefield the longest. George Washington mostly lost battles, yet won the war.
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Author: OrmontUS 🐝🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 2027 
Subject: Re: The changing winds of war
Date: 08/30/2025 9:03 AM
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Given enough resources, an adversary with an order of magnitude higher population, ability to invent/procure the finest of weapons, and so on is expected to win in a direct contest. That said, by using inovation, a smaller adversary can perform asymimetrically better. Whether by mobility, effective but cheaper weapons, guarilla warfare, novel new weapon catagories which make expensive weapon systems vulnerable (guns vs. armor, tanks vs. calvery, planes vs. battleships, etc.), a smaller force can punch way above their weight class. It doesn't mean they can overcome the enemy's forces, but they can be expensive enough to compete against to change the dynamics of the political aspects of the competition.

The political challenge in the current negotiations is that the moderator who has injected himself to solve it is obviously biased and wants to end the conflict quickly at the expense of the smaller combatant in order to gain a personal Nobel Peace Prize (it fits the "retribution theme" that two of his "personal" adversaries have gotten them in the recent past - Barack Obama and Greta Thunberg, but, so far, he has been shunned).

Jeff
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Author: OrmontUS 🐝🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 2027 
Subject: Re: The changing winds of war
Date: 08/30/2025 9:16 AM
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George Washington mostly lost battles, yet won the war.
________________________________________________________

He survived, but the French won the war. During our "War of 1812" (actually a pimple on the tush of the Napoleonic Wars), the British marched up and down our coast, burned the presidential mansion (which was called the "White House" after white paint was used to cover the smoke marks) and basically tore things up for a while.

The treaty that officially ended the War of 1812 was the Treaty of Ghent, signed on December 24, 1814, and ratified by the U.S. Senate on February 17, 1815. It restored pre-war boundaries between the United States and Great Britain, but did not resolve the issues of neutral rights or impressment that had sparked the conflict. The treaty essentially restored the status quo antebellum, or the state of affairs before the war, returning territories and prisoners., yet it solidified USA nationalism and has been celebrated as a victory ever since. (I guess because we didn't lose).

Jeff
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Author: tjscott0   😊 😞
Number: of 2027 
Subject: Re: The changing winds of war
Date: 09/01/2025 10:45 AM
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Drones are now used instead of aircraft, both as a proxy for airborne artillery and for reconnaissance. While I guess it may be safer and provide a more powerful weapon for a soldier to be inside of a tank than a foxhole, but it is also a vulnerable target.
Ukrainian use of drones pretty much ended Russian tank wave attack. Now the Russians use drones to attack Ukrainian infrastructure. The Russians now has a factory or factories assembling drones using China or Iran parts. Russian drone attacks include the use of many decoy drones [that are cheap to manufacture] to penetrate the Ukrainian air defense system.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20250831-thousa...
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Author: Timer321   😊 😞
Number: of 2027 
Subject: Re: The changing winds of war
Date: 09/01/2025 12:01 PM
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Man power

AI Overview
Despite massive losses in personnel and equipment, Russia's military remains a very large force, though its capabilities have been severely eroded. High casualty rates have been offset by aggressive recruitment and mobilization drives, which have expanded the total number of active-duty soldiers. However, experts note a severe decline in quality and experience, particularly in ground forces.
Personnel
Total active personnel: As of early 2025, estimates place the number of active-duty Russian soldiers at around 1.1–1.3 million. In 2024, Russia claimed to have recruited nearly 440,000 new personnel, though observers believe this figure is likely exaggerated.
Casualty estimates: Western intelligence and independent analysis estimate that Russia has suffered between 750,000 and 1 million total casualties (killed and wounded) by mid-2025. For comparison, Russia's pre-war active-duty military was around 900,000.
Replenishment strategy: To sustain its numbers, Russia has relied heavily on:
Raising the upper age limit for conscription.
Aggressive recruitment drives offering high salaries.
Pressing convicts and debtors into service in exchange for amnesty.
Deploying more expendable troops from remote regions and prisons.
Equipment and capabilities
Russia's military has suffered substantial equipment losses, particularly among its ground forces, though its defense industry has ramped up production to compensate. The quality of its arsenal has declined due to the reliance on older, unmodernized systems from storage.
Ground forces
Tanks: Russia likely began the war with about 3,300 combat-ready tanks and has suffered confirmed losses of over 4,000, according to open-source trackers. While the defense industry can produce a few hundred new T-90M tanks per year, this is far outpaced by battlefield losses. As a result, Russia relies heavily on restoring and deploying old Soviet-era T-62s and T-55s.
Armored vehicles: Russia has lost thousands of armored vehicles and may deplete its pre-war reserves by the end of 2025.
Artillery: Ukrainian strikes on ammunition depots have significantly reduced Russia's advantage in artillery, though it still has a substantial arsenal.
Air forces
Aircraft losses: Despite losing hundreds of aircraft since the full-scale invasion, Russia retains a large air force of over 4,000 military aircraft.
Operational restrictions: Due to threats from Ukrainian air defenses, Russian aircraft often operate cautiously over Russian-controlled territory, launching long-range munitions rather than flying directly over the front lines.
Naval forces
Black Sea Fleet: The Russian Navy has been hit particularly hard, with significant losses to its Black Sea Fleet, including the sinking of its flagship, the Moskva.
Black Sea restrictions: Ukraine's naval drone and missile attacks have pushed the fleet out of most of the western Black Sea and forced it to operate from safer ports further east.
Overall state
The heavy losses have exposed significant weaknesses in Russia's military, including:
Rigid command-and-control structures
Endemic corruption
Inadequate training for replacement personnel
Poor morale in some units
Despite these problems, Russia's large population and willingness to absorb massive casualties allow it to maintain troop levels and sustain a long war of attrition. The size of Russia's military should not be mistaken for its operational effectiveness.
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Author: Timer321   😊 😞
Number: of 2027 
Subject: Re: The changing winds of war
Date: 09/01/2025 12:03 PM
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TJ,

I am not sure we can sum this up for Russia. We had nothing like the losses in Vietnam.

Russian losses in Afghanistan were minor compared to Ukraine. Russia is truly suffering for bringing on this war.

During the 1979–1989 Soviet-Afghan War, Soviet losses were approximately 14,453 to 15,000 killed, with another 53,753 wounded and 264 missing. The causes of death varied, including 9,511 killed in combat, 2,386 from wounds, and 2,556 from disease and accidents. The war also resulted in the loss of military equipment, with 451 aircraft (including 333 helicopters), 147 tanks, and 1,314 armored personnel carriers lost.
Specifics of Soviet Losses
Killed in Action: ~9,511-10,000
Died from Wounds: ~2,386
Died from Disease and Accidents: ~2,556
Total Killed: ~14,453–15,000
Wounded: ~53,753
Missing: ~264
Hospitalized: ~415,932 due to disease
Military Hardware Losses
Aircraft: 451 (including 333 helicopters)
Tanks: 147
Infantry Fighting Vehicles/Armored Personnel Carriers: 1,314
Artillery Guns and Mortars: 433

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Author: PucksFool   😊 😞
Number: of 16625 
Subject: Re: The changing winds of war
Date: 09/01/2025 12:50 PM
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I asked DuckDuckGo to search for "russian losses in ukraine." Here is what the site's AI reported. Sorry about the messy column formatting, but I think you can figure out that the losses are horrific.

As of August 2025, approximately 220,000 Russian soldiers have been killed in the war with Ukraine, according to estimates based on excess male mortality data. The Russian military has also suffered significant equipment losses, with thousands of tanks and armored vehicles destroyed or captured.

en.zona.media csis.org

Overview of Russian Losses in Ukraine
Casualty Estimates
As of August 2025, Russian military losses are estimated to be around 220,000 killed.
Independent reports suggest that the total number of Russian casualties, including wounded and missing, may exceed 1 million.
Breakdown of Losses
TYPE OF LOSS ESTIMATED FIGURES
Killed ~220,000
Wounded ~800,000
Total Casualties >1,000,000
Equipment Losses 22,458 military vehicles lost
Tanks 13,109
Armored Fighting Vehicles 23,212
Artillery Systems 32,199

Context of Losses
The Russian military has faced significant challenges in advancing and maintaining control over territories in Ukraine.

Reports indicate that Russian forces have gained only limited territory, with substantial equipment losses and high casualty rates.

The ongoing conflict has resulted in Russia's most costly military engagement since World War II, with heavy losses reported in various offensives.

Recruitment and Reinforcement
Despite these losses, Russia has been able to replenish its military ranks through recruitment, including contract soldiers and volunteer units.

The Russian government has implemented strategies to incentivize enlistment, which has helped maintain troop numbers despite high casualty rates.

These figures highlight the severe impact of the ongoing conflict on Russian military capabilities and personnel.
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Author: Timer321   😊 😞
Number: of 16625 
Subject: Re: The changing winds of war
Date: 09/01/2025 2:04 PM
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PF,

The DuckDuckGo results were more granular than Google AI. Thanks for posting them.

Something on the order of 220k dead. Less than I had expected because other agencies do not break it out well. Horrifying nonetheless.

In a Russian revolution, the wounded would fight on which side?
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Author: tjscott0   😊 😞
Number: of 16625 
Subject: Re: The changing winds of war
Date: 09/01/2025 9:01 PM
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Tanks: Russia likely began the war with about 3,300 combat-ready tanks and has suffered confirmed losses of over 4,000, according to open-source trackers. While the defense industry can produce a few hundred new T-90M tanks per year, this is far outpaced by battlefield losses. As a result, Russia relies heavily on restoring and deploying old Soviet-era T-62s and T-55s.
Armored vehicles: Russia has lost thousands of armored vehicles and may deplete its pre-war reserves by the end of 2025.
Artillery: Ukrainian strikes on ammunition depots have significantly reduced Russia's advantage in artillery, though it still has a substantial arsenal.


Russia no longer utilizes massive tank and infantry attacks. Their strategy has evolved. Drones play a large part of Russian attacks. Drones have replaced the reliance upon artillery.

https://zeihan.com/russian-evolutions-in-the-ukrai...
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Author: tjscott0   😊 😞
Number: of 16625 
Subject: Re: The changing winds of war
Date: 09/03/2025 9:45 AM
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I also meant to provide this link too.
https://zeihan.com/russian-evolutions-in-the-ukrai...
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