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Halls of Shrewd'm / US Policy
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Author: albaby1 🐝 HONORARY
SHREWD
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Number: of 48466 
Subject: For Dope - Breaking the European Model
Date: 02/24/2025 6:17 PM
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Dope, I've got a question.

When people ask why I engage in long discussions with conservatives on this board, one reason I often give is that it helps me get a better understanding of conservative beliefs. I don't expect to change minds, but it helps me get visibility into what people who disagree with me are thinking.

You mentioned in the other thread your belief that the EU couldn't change their military expenditures in a way that provided for their own defense and still maintain their social welfare programs.

Is that an idea that's percolating among conservatives? That forcing the EU to have more military expenditures and be more independent of the US won't just have the effect of potentially reducing our defense burden, but might achieve the conservative goal of forcing them to retreat from their domestic spending policies?

That honestly hadn't occurred to me before. I had assumed that efforts to force the EU to spend more were just coming from a desire to possibly reduce (or repurpose) our military expenditures....or perhaps just coming from a general sense of "unfairness" that they're free-riding. I hadn't thought that one motive that conservatives might have for pushing Europeans to spend more on defense is that it might undermine their domestic economic model in favor of one conservatives more approve of.

Is that something that's out there? Or was that just something that just flowed out of our discussion?
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Author: Goofyhoofy 🐝 HONORARY
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Number: of 48466 
Subject: Re: For Dope - Breaking the European Model
Date: 02/24/2025 6:48 PM
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Is that something that's out there? Or was that just something that just flowed out of our discussion?

I’m not him (something I give thanks for every day) but yes, that’s pretty common currency in right wing channels. They believe that Europe is a hotbed of Socialism, that those high taxes are all flowing to the layabouts who refuse to do any real and manly work (lattes at the sidewalk cafe for anyone?) and if they would only live up to their worldly responsibilities (aka: more military, less coffee klatch) things would be a lot better all around.

I watch the occasional arch-conservative show (Wall Street Journal Editors on PBS, for example, sometimes Fox Business, etc) and it’s a common theme how misguided those daffy Europeans are. Danish going about in their EV’s? How can that work? Those French unions! The Greeks laying around in the fields near the Mediterranean!

I’m sure this is just a lever they’re trying to pull, like “all the media is liberal” and “the welfare queen” and “urban hell holes”, trying to game the refs by any means to achieve their he-man, Dodge RAM Truck ethos, pretending that “woke” is going to destroy the country, even as they cheer on a President who has invoked more power and broken more laws in his first 30 days than any other in history.
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Author: Dope1   😊 😞
Number: of 48466 
Subject: Re: For Dope - Breaking the European Model
Date: 02/24/2025 7:00 PM
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That honestly hadn't occurred to me before. I had assumed that efforts to force the EU to spend more were just coming from a desire to possibly reduce (or repurpose) our military expenditures....or perhaps just coming from a general sense of "unfairness" that they're free-riding. I hadn't thought that one motive that conservatives might have for pushing Europeans to spend more on defense is that it might undermine their domestic economic model in favor of one conservatives more approve of.

Is that something that's out there? Or was that just something that just flowed out of our discussion?


No, at least not from me.
France and some other European countries have a debt-to-GDP ratio that's greater than 100%. So do we. The trajectory of spending that the Europeans, and us, are on isn't sustainable. Sooner or later the "Guns vs. Butter" choice will be made for us in the form of severe austerity, and no one wants that.

Already here in the States our debt service payments have surpassed our national defense spending.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/federal-debt-interest...
Federal spending on interest payments is forecast to hit $870 billion this year — exceeding the $822 billion that the nation will spend on defense in 2024, according to a recent analysis by the Congressional Budget Office. This year's outlay for interest payments represents a 32% increase from last year's $659 billion in interest expense.

Ouch.

My recent stridency on this topic comes from one source:

There are those in the federal government that believe that China makes its move in 2027. I won't say where I've had that related to me; just know that there are people at high levels who think that the Chinese are strategically ready to make serious moves against the United States in that timeframe. Will it be 2027? Maybe not - the recent scandal they had in their Strategic Rocket Forces...

https://www.csis.org/analysis/chinas-waterlogged-m...
On December 29, Xi Jinping removed nine top military officials in what is being called a “purge,” including officials from the Strategic Rocket Forces that oversee China’s nuclear-armed missiles. Subsequent reporting by Bloomberg indicated the purge was due to “widespread corruption” that has undermined “efforts to modernize the armed forces and raised questions about China’s ability to fight a war,” according to U.S. intelligence. Specifically, Chinese missiles were allegedly filled with water, rather fuel, including many of the missiles in the silo fields recently discovered by open-source intelligence.

...may mean a delay of a few years in their plans.

Summing up:
-The world is headed for a potentially spicy place in 2027-2030ish
-The US is in the worst shape financially it's been in since the Great Depression
-Our European allies have not invested significant amounts in their defenses since the Berlin Wall fell. They're starting to react, but need to do more.
-The Europeans also have financial problems of their own -and- their economies are not oriented towards growth (that's another thread).

So in short
-Time is of the essence, and we don't have much
-The Chinese threat is real
-Every dollar we have needs to be maximized
-Our allies need to have strategic focus. The war in Ukraine, while tragic, isn't the main event. The main event will take place out in the Pacific and will likely start with a Chinese move against our communication assets in space coupled with cyber activity.

The Europeans with their high energy prices, misguided adventures in green power and general levels of de-industrialization need to dig themselves out of a very big hole. Look for the Germans in particular to start up a bunch of their of their nuclear power plants.

So what might China do? I'm not going to phrase this in terms of a prediction since somebody will screenshot this and use it to be inflammatory later, lol. I'll think that up and post it later.
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Author: Dope1   😊 😞
Number: of 48466 
Subject: Re: For Dope - Breaking the European Model
Date: 02/24/2025 7:01 PM
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I’m not him (something I give thanks for every day)

This is a serious discussion between adults; let's not dirty it up with the usual Hateflow that permeates this board.
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