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Author: DTB   😊 😞
Number: of 15064 
Subject: Buyback tax
Date: 03/18/2024 9:18 AM
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In Thursday’s State of the Union address, President Joe Biden is expected to propose tripling the tax that companies pay when they buy back shares of their own stock. If approved (something that’s questionable in an election year), the White House hopes raising the tax rate from 1% to 4% will spur companies to use that money for either additional hiring or spending on things like new facilities or research and development.

https://www.fastcompany.com/91050879/what-are-stoc...


I'm trying to ignore the implicit Fast Company calculation that says that 3 times 1% gives you 4%, and focus on what a 4% buyback tax might mean for Berkshire shareholders. If the utilities are no longer a reliable sink for investing float at low but reliable rates of return, and big public companies are trading at high valuations, and big private companies are few and far between, then what's left? Dividends and buybacks, really, as Buffett has said he could not really justify holding huge sums of cash year after year.

Berkshire shareholders have been consulted about whether they want a dividend, and 97% of shareholders not called Buffett voted against a proposal to instate a dividend, 10 years ago.

So that leaves buybacks. The current 1% tax is probably too small to change Buffett's thinking very much, but a 4% tax might make him think twice, and already in the 2022 annual letter, Buffett showed that he is worried about this:

“When you are told that all repurchases are harmful to shareholders or the country, or particularly beneficial to CEOs, you are listening either to an economic illiterate or a silver-tongued demagogue (characters that are not mutually exclusive).”

'Silver-tongued demagogue' is not the description that springs to mind when one thinks of the current president, but the idea is back with a vengeance. I suppose it would need congressional approval, which is probably not in the cards, unless the previous guy also likes the idea. Might he? The 2018 tax cut was supposed to encourage companies to invest in factories, workers and wages, and companies using tax savings for buybacks may be something Trump is not enchanted about.

If a 4% tax were adopted, that might bring us back to liking dividends more. I'm trying to figure out how to quantify this. Obviously it depends on a lot of factors, like whether your shares are in a tax-sheltered account or not, what rate of tax you pay on dividends in your country, and how future capital gains will be taxed, but going from 1% to 4% would probably make enough of a difference to change priorities for a lot of shareholders. Any thoughts on this?

DTB

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Author: longtimebrk   😊 😞
Number: of 15064 
Subject: Re: Buyback tax
Date: 03/18/2024 9:48 AM
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this was why I posted this and the thread got moved to a political board when in fact it is just simply business.


A 4% buyback tax will change Warren's thinking in my opinion. It definitely is a negative for Berkshire shareholders regardless of your politics. I am apolitical.

I don't want a dividend but as you fairy state BHE may not be a suitable destination for a lot of capital.

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Author: Banksy 🐝🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 15064 
Subject: Re: Buyback tax
Date: 03/18/2024 12:12 PM
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DTB: <'Silver-tongued demagogue' is not the description that springs to mind when one thinks of the current president>

"Silver-tongued demagogue" does remind me of someone, I can't put my finger on who...

"A demagogue is a political leader who gains popularity by arousing the common people,
appealing to emotion by scapegoating out-groups, exaggerating dangers to stoke fears,
lying for emotional effect, or other rhetoric that tends to drown
out reasoned deliberation and encourage fanatical popularity.
Demagogues overturn established norms of political conduct, or promise or threaten to do so."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue
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Author: DTB   😊 😞
Number: of 15064 
Subject: Re: Buyback tax
Date: 03/18/2024 12:37 PM
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longtimebrk: this was why I posted this and the thread got moved to a political board when in fact it is just simply business.

A 4% buyback tax will change Warren's thinking in my opinion. It definitely is a negative for Berkshire shareholders regardless of your politics. I am apolitical.




Yes, we should certainly try to keep this as apolitical as possible, but the fact of the matter is that the next president will almost certainly be Biden or Trump, and Biden seems to be in favour of increasing the repurchase tax from 1% to 4%; Trump, we don't know, but I found this:

President Trump told reporters on Thursday he would be "OK" with a conditional coronavirus bailout that bans stock buybacks for companies that receive federal relief.

Why it matters: Trump's tax cuts set off a record-setting buyback spree in corporate America. The comments are a shift in tone, given that his deputies have defended share repurchases in the past.

What he's saying: Trump said he was "never happy" that companies were using cash to buy back stock.


https://www.axios.com/2020/03/19/trump-administrat...

I haven't seen any more recent comments from Trump about such a tax, although in 2018 there was a Republican proposal in the Senate, sponsored by Marco Rubio, to raise tax on buybacks, so there is some Republican support for the idea. And the prospect of such a tax, eventually, might be a pretty good reason for Buffett to repurchase shares a little more aggressively, while the tax is still low.

dtb

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Author: hedgehog444   😊 😞
Number: of 15064 
Subject: Re: Buyback tax
Date: 03/18/2024 12:55 PM
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If the law was written such that the tax only was on buybacks when the stock was above current value it could have some interesting consequences. It might force companies to get some kind of fairness letter that they weren't throwing away money and might help investors decide whether they agree with that assessment of value. And those that buy back at laughably high valuations might see themselves arguing with the IRS in court if the letter tries to hide that fact.
Rgds,
HH/Sean
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Author: weatherman   😊 😞
Number: of 48467 
Subject: Re: Buyback tax
Date: 03/18/2024 3:56 PM
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ok, gotta call 'give me break' on this one.

its not like buybacks were warren's only option. he opportunistically dismissed dividends relative to a number of other options.

if BH fanboys want to worry, its more likely warren has lost his mojo to do massively compounding acquisitions. so let's blame multiple past\future presidents for that one, regardless of how nonsensical.

given the size and duration of the cash hoard, warren's last meaningful allocation may have been the apple equity.

the business of america is business, and corporations will continue to have more options and lower rates than the individual taxpayer. we face steep increases in several low-fanfare stealth taxes (IRMAA, etc...)
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Author: ultimatespinach   😊 😞
Number: of 48467 
Subject: Re: Buyback tax
Date: 03/18/2024 5:49 PM
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. . . the idea is back with a vengeance. I suppose it would need congressional approval, which is probably not in the cards, unless the previous guy also likes the idea. Might he?

Apologies for the (hopefully) non-partisan political analysis, but it is aimed solely at the question posed about the likelihood of a 4% buyback tax and its effects on Berkshire buybacks.

For what it's worth, from someone with a regrettable addiction to following U.S. politics, I would be willing to make a reasonably large wager that Mr. Biden's proposal will not be enacted any time in the foreseeable future. For understandable reasons, news accounts seldom delve into the soporific details of congressional rules that make it unlikely.

While there are populists in both parties who would likely support it, there is also a large bipartisan group that relies on corporate support to fund their campaigns. Most legislation requires 60 votes in the Senate to close debate and prevent a filibuster. Given the even partisan split today and the red team/blue team dynamic that prevails, getting to 60 on any substantive matter is extremely challenging. Many Democrats would like to abolish the filibuster, but they have never had the votes even within their own caucus to accomplish this.

The existing 1% buyback tax was enacted only because it was tucked into the Inflation Reduction Act, which passed the Senate on a party-line vote of 51-50, with the vice president breaking a 50-50 tie. The reason this bill did not require 60 votes is it fell under an esoteric rule called budget reconciliation. This requires a bunch of steps including approval by both the House and Senate of a budget resolution that refers specific proposals to specific committees under this designated process.

https://www.cbpp.org/research/introduction-to-budg...

This is difficult to accomplish and happens quite rarely. As of 2022, it had been used 22 times in the preceding 48 years. It is more common today than it used to be because the increasingly dysfunctional Congress is no longer capable of passing the dozen or so appropriation bills required by the traditional budget process. Even so, this gridlock is usually addressed with massive continuing resolutions on the brink of government shutdowns rather than resort to the reconciliation process.

Current betting odds on this year's Senate elections favor Republicans to flip Democratic seats in Montana, Ohio and West Virginia. The latter is a virtual certainty with Joe Manchin retiring. If these odds prove accurate, the Senate will flip to Republican control. A measure to increase corporate taxes in any particular would be unlikely to reach the Senate floor under a Republican leader. Mitch McConnell made a science of this tactic and both declared candidates to succeed him learned at his feet.

Even if Democrats surprise the oddsmakers and retain control of the Senate, they would need 8-10 Republicans to cross the aisle and support Mr. Biden's proposal, a virtual impossibility in today's political climate.

I can come up with two plausible scenarios where a 4% buyback tax passes Congress. One is a massive blue wave in the coming election. The other is the former guy gets re-elected, champions an idea proposed by his hated rival, and Republicans in the Senate meekly follow along. I would put the percentage chances of either of these scenarios actually playing out in the single digits.

So, to quote Jim Carrey, you're saying there's a chance! Yes, there's a chance. Anything is possible. But I would not let items on partisan political wishlists with no visible path to passage affect my investment decisions.

JMO, of course.
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Author: WEBspired   😊 😞
Number: of 48467 
Subject: Re: Buyback tax
Date: 03/19/2024 6:42 AM
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Thanks & I do hope you are correct! Reminds me of Charlie’s commentary years ago 😉:

“I always liked Bismarck’s remark that you shouldn’t watch two things: sausage making and legislation making.”
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