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Stocks A to Z / Stocks B / Berkshire Hathaway (BRK.A)
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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝🐝 SILVER
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Number: of 15059 
Subject: Coat tails 1: Davita, DVA
Date: 08/27/2024 6:10 AM
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A kickoff post for discussion of Berkshire's various stock holdings.

What do people think of Davita?

Just to get the juices really flowing, I hate it and almost always have. I'm embarrassed to be an indirect owner.

The main attraction is the progress in metrics per share because of the very substantial buybacks. But the operating business as a whole is (a) moribund, and (b) a bit dodgy.

A seven year old opinion of the (b) factor, definitely worth watching even if you don't agree with the slant. Also quite funny.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw_nqzVfxFQ

As for (a), top line revenues are almost precisely flat compared to a decade ago, maybe 25% lower in real terms.

The improvements in metrics per share are real, and it's a perfectly reasonable capital allocation out of free cash flow and owner earnings. But if that's where a big chunk of owner earnings are going, then they aren't going to owners as coupons or expansion of the business---if they switched to paying out, then there wouldn't be the per-share growth. You can't eat the same cake twice. It isn't a growing firm that is ALSO doing a lot of buybacks, it's one or the other.

Sure, it's a necessary service. There are people alive who would not be if nobody did what they are doing. But couldn't a better company do it?

So--what do other people think.
Is it in the too hard pile? The too smelly pile? Do you think the prospects are good from here, for Berkshire to do well in it? Is there reputational risk? Better insights on their economic trajectory?

Jim
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Author: Philly Tide   😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Coat tails 1: Davita, DVA
Date: 08/27/2024 7:38 AM
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I really have not done the research, but isn't diabetes going to decline substantially because of the new GLP-1 drugs?

Edit: I asked perplexity and it says probably not.

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/will-diabetes-dec...
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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝🐝 SILVER
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Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Coat tails 1: Davita, DVA
Date: 08/27/2024 7:47 AM
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Edit: I asked perplexity and it says probably not.

That was my first thought. If only because the segment of society with high rates of diabetes and renal failure does not overlap hugely with the segment that can afford those injections. That might change over time, but offhand I don't think drugs can or will cure the problem.

Jim
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Author: Berkfan   😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Coat tails 1: Davita, DVA
Date: 08/27/2024 7:51 AM
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During the pandemic they were hurt- their population of patients are weak to begin with and it seems that mortality was elevated in their population (they lost patients- which means loss of treatments). Missed treatments was a problem for them as well during the pandemic as well as ‘new to dialysis’ patients. They also had issues with labor costs.

Now it seems that ‘new to dialysis’ patients are at pre-covid levels, but mortality is still elevated. So people are not staying on dialysis as long as they are passing away earlier.

They have been buying international assets as well.

I think it’s an essential business- Medicare needs them. They throw off a ton of cash which as Jim mentioned is used for repurchase and I basically think this is the story here. Stable business, with slight rev growth, all cash goes to the buyback, which is not insignificant.

Ted owns 2mm shares and Berkshire now has an agreement with DVA that once Berkshire’s position hits 45%, they will sell into the buyback to maintain a max of 45%.

Seems like they are operating efficiently to me at this time.
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Author: rayvt 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Coat tails 1: Davita, DVA
Date: 08/27/2024 9:55 AM
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Now it seems that ‘new to dialysis’ patients are at pre-covid levels, but mortality is still elevated. So people are not staying on dialysis as long as they are passing away earlier.

The clinic where I go to get my weekly allergy shots has a dialysis room where they are taking treatment.

Having watched this every day for a few years, I decided that if I ever need dialysis I would start seriously looking for a way out. That's no way to live. Maybe take up base jumping or scuba cave-diving at age 81.
Or maybe going into a biker bar on a Saturday night and shouting "Y'all are a bunch of p*ssies!"
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Author: AdrianC 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Coat tails 1: Davita, DVA
Date: 08/27/2024 10:23 AM
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Having watched this every day for a few years, I decided that if I ever need dialysis I would start seriously looking for a way out. That's no way to live.

You would have a way out, and many take it - just stop dialysis. If the kidneys have no function it takes about 10-14 days. Pretty unpleasant way to go, though.

My dad did dialysis for 10 years. He used DaVita when he visited us from the UK. A pretty decent life is still possible, even international travel is still possible.

No opinion on DaVita as an investment. They provide a necessary service. So does the NHS in the UK. Not sure who does it more efficiently, but I can guess.
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Author: BandonDunes   😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Coat tails 1: Davita, DVA
Date: 08/27/2024 11:32 AM
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DVA is Ted's baby. He apparently has spent years studying the company and committed a considerable amount of capital (everything being relative) to buying DVA shares.
To me, the frustrating thing is that we - as owners of BRK - should be able to ask Ted @ the annual meeting his thesis on investing in DVA but such things are not allowed, unfortunately.
Does anyone have any idea how DVA has performed since TW has owned it? I thought I remember reading something a few years ago that it hasn't been anything special, certainly no home run.

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Author: nola622   😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Coat tails 1: Davita, DVA
Date: 08/27/2024 12:08 PM
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DVA is Ted's baby. He apparently has spent years studying the company and committed a considerable amount of capital (everything being relative) to buying DVA shares.
To me, the frustrating thing is that we - as owners of BRK - should be able to ask Ted @ the annual meeting his thesis on investing in DVA but such things are not allowed, unfortunately.
Does anyone have any idea how DVA has performed since TW has owned it? I thought I remember reading something a few years ago that it hasn't been anything special, certainly no home run.


This is correct, Ted personally owns $339 million worth of DaVita shares. More than half of the DVA shares "Berkshire" owns are owned by the pension funds, not Berkshire shareholders directly.


DVA was hurt for many years by the distraction (and poor returns) of the non-dialysis businesses they tried. If they stick to their focus and free cash flow retires shares, they should do fine going forward.

Berkshire's group ownership will be capped at 45%, so at some time in the not too distant future, the Berkshire entities will begin selling shares back to the company as part of their repurchase program.

Total return with dividends since 2013 looks like around 166% but most of that performance is fairly recent. So maybe the idea is just starting to do its thing.


I think Ted studied this industry all the way back from his job at WR Grace & Co.
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Author: DTB   😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Coat tails 1: Davita, DVA
Date: 08/27/2024 2:27 PM
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...'isn't diabetes going to decline substantially because of the new GLP-1 drugs?

Edit: I asked perplexity and it says probably not.

That was my first thought. If only because the segment of society with high rates of diabetes and renal failure does not overlap hugely with the segment that can afford those injections. That might change over time, but offhand I don't think drugs can or will cure the problem.


Perplexity's answer is a good example of an AI tool which gives a plausible-sounding answer which is actually nonsense.

Why won't the new drugs have a big impact? Perplexity says that diabetes rates are rising despite the new drugs, but to justify this, it quotes a 2014 article published before the advbent of the new GLP-1 drugs like semaglutide (Ozempic, etc.) or the GLP-1/GIP dual agonist drugs like tirzepatide (Mounjaro, etc.) or of course the even more effective GLP-1/GIP/Gcg drugs like retatrutide, which have yet to be approved. Not only does the Perplexity article not mention the dual or triple agonist drugs, it claims that only 36% of diabetes patients achieve glycemic control with currently available therapies, citing the same outdated article. And the drugs are not just used to control diabetes, they are used to control obesity and prevent diabetes.

The other major competitors for hemodialysis services are transplantation, which is likely to continue to become more affordable, and usually represents a cheaper and more effective solution than dialysis. The other alternative is peritoneal dialysis, which you do at home. The stagnation in DaVita's revenues, over the last 10 years, despite an aging population and increasing obesity in the USA, may be evidence that the increase in renal failure is not all going to hemodialysis.

The other vulnerability that DaVita has, or at least had when I looked into it more a few years ago, is that most of its earnings come from the small proportion of their clients who are not covered by Medicare. Although the total population of patients in renal failure in the USA is bound to increase, most of them will be over 65 and will qualify for Medicare coverage. In the past, DaVita has managed to maintain the very high-margin non-Medicare revenues by a variety of somewhat shady means. This is a very recent example: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/davita-pay-over-34m...

It has always surprised me that Buffett is comfortable having Berkshire associated with this company, although I believe it is a Wechsler investment. Wechsler joined Berkshire in 2012, had owned DVA previously, and it started showing up in Berkshire's portfolio in Q4 of 2011. Here is an article about Wechsler, and with a link to Wechsler's final letter to his investment partners, where he talks about this investment: https://www.kingswell.io/p/ted-weschlers-final-par...

That Kingswell article was written in 2023, and they claim that: "In the nine years since Weschler’s comments, DVA has earned just 2.1% compounded annual returns."

That will have improved in the last 16 months, with shares up from about $80 to $154. The company pays no dividends, so if the whole stake had been bought in December 2011, shares would have gone from $39 to $154, a 11.4% return. In fact, the shares were acquired from Q4 2011 to Q4 2014, at an average price which, eyeballing it, looks like it was probably about $55. $55 to $154 between June 2013 and now would be more like a 10% annual return. Not great, not terrible, with most of that return is from the better performance in the last 5 years.

I would be delighted if Buffett lightened up, but knowing Buffett, I presume he is going to let Wechsler do what he wants with it.

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Author: tairbear00 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Coat tails 1: Davita, DVA
Date: 08/27/2024 4:05 PM
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Hi DTB!

That Kingswell article was written in 2023, and they claim that: "In the nine years since Weschler’s comments, DVA has earned just 2.1% compounded annual returns

Hmmm...I quickly read DVA's most recent 10-Q and it appears they are forecasting a 2.1% revenue growth for 2025. You're correct that Medicare does not reimburse for services very well. When I was in the healthcare business, Medicare reimbursement (including copays) at the time was approximately 60% of my costs. Medicaid was even worse at 20% of my costs! The two programs combined were about 1/3 of my business. Another 1/3 was from private pays (insurance, cash, and contracts) which paid close to 100%. The last 1/3 were indigents that paid 0%! These consisted mostly of emergency patients, which we could not either legally or morally refuse to treat. Many hospitals had a similar patient-pay mix at the time. Government program reimbursements, in my experience, do not begin to keep up with inflation and it generally gets worse with time. I would guess that DVA has a very high percentage of Medicare and Medicaid patients. And to a lesser extent, a few private pay patients. Growth does help, to some extent...for a while. But basic economics will always rule. I sold most of my businesses almost 20 years ago. My last two personal physicians recently folded their private practices and went to work for large corporate practices. I wouldn't buy DVA but others will disagree. As Professor Mark Herschey used to say: "YMMV"*

*Your Milage May Vary


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Author: tairbear00 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Coat tails 1: Davita, DVA
Date: 08/27/2024 5:15 PM
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My apologies, I misspelled Mark Hirschey's last name...
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Author: sutton   😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Coat tails 1: Davita, DVA
Date: 08/27/2024 10:42 PM
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...what do other people think.
Is it in the too hard pile? The too smelly pile?


Too smelly.

I would just stop there.

Hospitals, clinics, providers (obviously) need to purchase supplies from commercial for-profit concerns, but there is a line.

That line is crossed when the for-profit corporations *acquire* the hospitals and clinics. (In the US, they cannot acquire the providers per se, as there is a restriction of the corporate practice of medicine. But they can (and do) acquire the front office, the back office, the provider reimbursement schedule and incentives...paging Dr Hobson, you need to make a choice)

When that happens, patient care suffers. Always. (The same thing happens when a large nonprofit forgets itself: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/24/business/nonpro... (gift, ungated)

I would not choose to be complicit, any more than I would buy MO (which Messrs Buffett and Munger also refused to buy)

- sutton
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Author: SteadyAim   😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Coat tails 1: Davita, DVA
Date: 09/04/2024 10:39 AM
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That might change over time, but offhand I don't think drugs can or will cure the problem.

Yeah. There have been plenty of weight loss drugs in the past (e.g. amphetamines), but they never seem to work out as well as people (well, the companies selling them) hope.

SA
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Author: Berkfan   😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Coat tails 1: Davita, DVA
Date: 09/06/2024 9:31 AM
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On September 5, 2024, the Company's Board increased the authorization under the Company’s existing share repurchase program by $2,000,000,000 in additional repurchasing authority (the "New Authorization"). The amount of shares of common stock authorized to be repurchased under the New Authorization does not include the amount remaining under the Company’s existing share repurchase program authorized on December 17, 2021 (the "Existing Authorization"). The Existing Authorization and the New Authorization do not have an expiration date and do not obligate the Company to purchase any shares. Repurchases under the New Authorization and the Existing Authorization may take place in the open market or in privately negotiated transactions, including without limitation, pursuant to the Company's share repurchase agreement, dated as of April 30, 2024 with Berkshire Hathaway Inc. (the "Berkshire Share Repurchase Agreement"), on behalf of itself and its affiliates, through accelerated share repurchase transactions, derivative transactions, tender offers, Rule 10b5-1 plans or any combination of the foregoing. There can be no assurance as to the precise number of shares that will be repurchased under the Existing Authorization or the New Authorization, the aggregate dollar amount of the shares purchased, or the ultimate disposition of the shares purchased (re-issued, retained in treasury and/or retired). Depending on market conditions, regulatory, legal and contractual requirements and other factors, repurchases may be made at any time or from time to time, without prior notice. The Company may suspend or discontinue the Existing Authorization and/or the New Authorization, or increase or decrease the amount of shares authorized to be repurchased thereunder, at any time. The Company remains subject to certain share repurchase limitations, including under the terms of its current senior secured credit facilities.
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