Hi, Shrewd!        Login  
Shrewd'm.com 
A merry & shrewd investing community
Best Of BRK.A | Best Of | Favourites & Replies | All Boards | Post of the Week!
Search BRK.A
Shrewd'm.com Merry shrewd investors
Best Of BRK.A | Best Of | Favourites & Replies | All Boards | Post of the Week!
Search BRK.A


Stocks A to Z / Stocks B / Berkshire Hathaway (BRK.A)
Unthreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (14) |
Post New
Author: ultimatespinach   😊 😞
Number: of 488 
Subject: BN fair value
Date: 05/13/2023 8:46 PM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 26
Valuing Brookfield has always been insanely difficult, in part because it required assigning arbitrary multiples to various parts of the business not traded in the public markets. That changed when they spun out a small stake in their biggest business, asset management, to derive a pure-play market multiple.

Whether we can now calculate true intrinsic value is debatable as ever, but we should be able to derive an expected market value, or fair value, for the parent company's shares that is consistent with the market values of the component parts. The market values of the subs conveniently make all the sector and business adjustments Brookfield's broad range of businesses and assets require. They will rise and fall with macro conditions and sentiment, but it should be possible to derive a fair value for the parent based on market values of the subs at any given time.

Prior to the BAM spinout late last year, one of the two big debates around Brookfield valuation was the multiple assigned to fee-related earnings (FRE), the custodial and management fees it earns in the business of managing other people's money, a business that has mushroomed into a behemoth over the past generation. If you used Blackstone's market FRE multiple, you got a much higher value than if you used those of the smaller publicly-traded managers.

Not surprisingly, Brookfield aspired to Blackstone's FRE multiple, which approached 40x in the heady days of 2021. In the plan value calculation Brookfield published with its quarterly results for a time, it included a 20x FRE multiple until acquiring Oaktree in 2019. After that, it pushed the multiple to 25x. Value investors unfamiliar with the alternative asset management universe generally thought these multiples were too high, often substituting a historical market multiple like 15x.

When Brookfield spun out 25% of the asset management business late last year, one purpose was to end that debate. Virtually all of the new BAM's earnings are FRE. In Q1, it reported $0.34 of distributable earnings and $0.33 of FRE. For the previous 12 months, it reported $1.33 of DE and $1.32 of FRE.

At BAM's closing share price on March 31 ($32.72), that's a FRE multiple of 24.8x. Adjusting for the dividend, it was 24.2x. At Friday's close of $31.55, it was 23.9x. These are all in a macro environment where alternative asset managers are generally trading toward the lower end of their 52-week ranges. This FRE multiple might be expected to rise in more exuberant market conditions. Whatever it's worth in judging Brookfield's credibility on other matters, its assignment of FRE multiples pre-spinout was not extravagant.

The other big debate around Brookfield valuation in the days of the published plan value was the treatment of carried interest. For the same ill-advised reasons that 25x FRE seemed high, 10x target carry seemed low and reasonable. But as older private funds met performance targets and newer vintages grew in size, target carry expanded rapidly. 10x has become a very large number and a much more significant part of the parent's valuation.

For Q2 2021, the last report in which they published the plan value calculation, 'target carried interest, net' was $1.75 billion, which became $17.5 billion of plan value at 10x. They also added 1x 'accumulated unrealized carried interest,' which they defined as carry already earned in funds that have not been liquidated. This amounted to another $3.5 billion in Q2 2021. So prospective carry accounted for $21 billion of plan value in the final published calculation, or not quite 20% of total plan value of $106.8 billion.

Fast forward to today, seven quarters later. Annualized target carry was $3.7 billion in the Q1 report. Net unrealized carry was $5.7 billion. Using the old formula, these figures would produce $42.7 billion of plan value, or more than 35% of what they now call net blended capital of $119.7 billion. This is comparable to the old plan value because they now include everything in 'Capital.'

They seem to have reduced the multiple they apply to target carry by one-third, to 6.7x. At least, that's what I get when I divide the total value they give it ($24.95 billion) by the annualized figure they report in a different section. They continue to value unrealized carry at 1x.

They have added a line called 'Direct Investments,' which I assume corresponds to the line 'Unlisted Investments' in the old plan value, referring to investments by the parent in assets or private funds not under the umbrella of any of the publicly-listed subs. That figure was $12.4 billion in the last plan value calc and remains $12.4 billion in the most recent report.

In the current Capital calculation, there is a vast difference between book, listed as 'IFRS,' and 'blended.' BN is worth $24.65 per share by IFRS, $73.83 by Brookfield's blended method.

About half of this difference is due to the disparity between IFRS and public market values of assets in the listed subs. The biggest discrepancy, by far, is in the asset management franchise. Being 'asset-light' is not an asset when the calculation is net asset value. The IFRS value of BN's 75% stake in BAM is $6.8 billion. Based on the market value of the listed 25%, BN's stake is worth $40 billion. Public market values of BEP, BIP and BBU are $10 billion more than the IFRS values of their assets.

The other half of the difference between IFRS and 'blended' values is $30.7 billion Brookfield adds for target and unrealized carried interest. These have no IFRS value.

To derive my own conservative BN valuation, I split this difference. I go with the market values of the subs, including BAM, because it makes no sense to me to value the same assets differently depending on which ticker you're discussing. BN's shares of BAM, BEP, BIP and BBU should be valued the same as the shares within those subs.

On the other hand, I am inclined to give no present value to uncollected carried interest. If and when it is collected and becomes earnings, it will be credited and presumably provide upside surprises that might contribute to stock performance. Given the importance of performance fees to the asset management model, I realize this might be overly conservative. But I wonder what would happen to all this anticipated carry in the event of a major market crash and deep recession. I prefer not to count on a bird in the bush and think of it as a bonus of the business model if and when it is collected.

Another big issue is assessing the value of Brookfield's extensive real estate portfolio. In the wake of the pandemic and subsequent interest rate hikes, many observers believed the IFRS value of this portfolio had not caught up to current market conditions. They were right. The IFRS value of Brookfield's real estate holdings took a 27% haircut in three months, from $31.8 billion at Dec. 31 to $23.1 billion at March 31. To be conservative, I add a 20% cut on top of that and assign an admittedly arbitrary value of $18.5 billion.

The final issue is a $4 billion disparity between IFRS and 'blended' values for the growing insurance business. Although it has its own ticker (BNRE) it is currently paired with BN, meaning it can be exchanged for BN, meaning its market quote is not yet determined by the financials of the business. Brookfield's only explanation for the difference is a footnote: 'Blended value represents management's view of the fair value of our insurance solutions business.' Given the absence of substance in that explanation, I go with IFRS for insurance.

So, here's a swing at a conservative valuation of BN that credits market values for the subs, but pares back Brookfield's generous assessments everywhere else (figures in millions except per share):

Units/Shares Public Market Value (at March 31)

BAM 1,226 40,131
BEP 312 9,986
BIP 209 7,230
BBU 142 2,702



IFRS value (at March 31)

Insurance 4,006
BPG 18,519*
Direct Investments 12,488
Other 942

Total Investments 96,004
Corporate and other (349)
Capital 95,655
Debt and Preferred Capital (16,700)
Net Capital 78,955

Per share $48.70


*IFRS value minus 20%


As it happens, this method yields a value almost exactly halfway between IFRS and Brookfield's blended value. Dissent welcome.
Print the post


Author: dealraker   😊 😞
Number: of 488 
Subject: Re: BN fair value
Date: 05/14/2023 9:05 AM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 3
Thanks for the attempt to do this ultimatespinach. It is an oddity to me when credible management is seemingly insanely promotional and large numbers of investors post almost an endless array of good analysis that is beyond imagination extremely positive--- that the stock is languishing. Generally it is the opposite.
Print the post


Author: rnam   😊 😞
Number: of 15062 
Subject: Re: BN fair value
Date: 05/16/2023 7:33 PM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 9
I don't fault your valuation; on paper it makes sense. I arrive at a lower valuation, because I assign a substantial discount (15-20%) for conglomerate complexity and management credibility. I do this because, this doesn't seem to be a short-term issue, but has persisted over many years, even decades. The market price almost never seems to come close to IV. So I don't anticipate that Mr. Market will close the discount. I believe many value investors do this as well and demand a much greater margin of safety, say 50% instead of 30%.

Even companies with far more credible management like Berkshire suffer from a conglomerate/complexity discount, though a smaller one. This has been narrowing lately, after Buffett made substantial repurchases.

I believe closed-end funds are in some ways similar to BN. They tend to always trade at a discount. The fund sponsors rake in the fees, so have no incentive to liquidate the funds or buy back shares. The discount never goes away unless an activist boots out the management.

Unless Brookfield management, on its own or through activist pressure, implements a substantial share repurchase, I don't expect the discount to narrow much.



Print the post


Author: Baybrooke   😊 😞
Number: of 15062 
Subject: Re: BN fair value
Date: 05/29/2023 12:32 AM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 6
Another perspective is to think about what the all time high (ATH) is and when it was reached.

Well, the answer is 50.50 (adjusted for the 25% BAM spin-off) and it was reached on 2/10/22. Memories are short. 2/10/22 was not that long ago and the same Mr. Market that we are currently complaining about assigned a 60.37% higher valuation to BN.

In Feb 2022, it was a completely different macro economic situation. The Federal Funds Rate (FFR) was still 0 and the Fed was still buying mortgage backed securities at the rate of tens of billions per month. Now FFR is 5% and the market is assigning a high probability to another 25 bps hike in June. It's the fastest 500 bps hike in history and poor BN has been clubbed like a baby seal. It is down 37.64% from its ATH. For comparison, SPY is down only 12.73% from its ATH and Berkshire is down even less coming in at 11.46%. It's a completely different situation. You can get a risk free 5% in a federal money market fund. These funds were yielding zero for more than a decade.

https://www.newyorkfed.org/markets/reference-rates...

Is BN's ATH of 50.50 the forever ATH? Will it never reach 50.50 ever again? Given Brookfield's growth trajectory, at some point in the future, of course ATH will be reached and surpassed. We just don't know exactly when. We also don't know what other investments will do in the same time period. So there is an opportunity cost.

Below table shows the Compound Annual Growth Rate (CAGR) we will get when BN reaches 50.50 for different lengths of time. This is from the current (5/28/23) price of 31.49. This is price appreciation only. The total return will be slightly higher given BN's modest dividend.

Years     CAGR
1 60.37
2 26.64
3 17.05
4 12.53
5 9.91
6 8.19
7 6.98
8 6.08
9 5.39
10 4.84

Even if the ATH is revisited in 5 years, it's a respectable 9.91% annual return + dividends. The odds are definitely in our favor. BN/BAM or both deserve a place in our portfolios, but I would also caution against over allocation. With the sole exception of Berkshire, I don't think it's wise to allocate too much to an individual stock. Even if the eventual outcome turns out to be in the range of very good to pleasant, we don't know what the interim period holds. Severe plunges even from these already low price levels are definitely possible. Most retail investors will get screwed in the head in these situations and end up taking harmful actions based on emotion. Granted there are rare exceptions, but by definition most individuals don't qualify.
Print the post


Author: dealraker   😊 😞
Number: of 15062 
Subject: Re: BN fair value
Date: 05/29/2023 10:57 PM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 1
Baybrooke, have you ever looked at Brookfield's 2003 to 2007 stock price performance? I mention this because I remember distinctly thinking "this is incredible" or something similar, 10 times your money in ten years. But outside that time frame?
Print the post


Author: dealraker   😊 😞
Number: of 15062 
Subject: Re: BN fair value
Date: 05/30/2023 8:41 AM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 2
Of course I meant 4 years or so. Dang, getting old shows.
Print the post


Author: dealraker   😊 😞
Number: of 15062 
Subject: Re: BN fair value
Date: 05/30/2023 8:58 AM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 3
In any event, finally-finally-finally there is some actual discussion instead of endless competition as to who can be the most euphoric over on Alexander Steinberg's most recent article as to BN. It isn't that I am negative or positive on BN, it simply that there has been years of invalid "analysis" as to Brookfield. Copy/paste of management promotions is not in any way shape or form an analysis.

I am a decades long owner and if you strip out a short period there's less than steller here. I hope the investigation of BN continues, it certainly offers more revealing outcome that most any stock/business out there. But people literally bragging as to how much of their portfolio is in Brookfield has gotten stale.

Life is great...if you can stand it.
Print the post


Author: Baybrooke   😊 😞
Number: of 15062 
Subject: Re: BN fair value
Date: 05/31/2023 1:55 AM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 6
Baybrooke, have you ever looked at Brookfield's 2003 to 2007 stock price performance?

No, I have not. Unlike you, I am not a very long time share holder. I started investing in Brookfield 8 years ago in 2015.

However, I do have the common shareholder's equity numbers handy going back to 2008 which I have listed below.

4,911 in 2008 to 39,608 in 2022 is a 16.08% annual growth rate in book value not including dividends and the various special distributions the most recent being the 25% BAM spin-off. The numbers speak for themselves. It's undeniable that Bruce Flatt and team have created a monster compounding machine. And contrary to what you would expect, size apparently hasn't become an anchor. Growth is accelerating according to management.

On the other hand, I completely agree with you that there is no need to be starry eyed and euphoric, especially in this marcoeconomic environment. I have modest expectations. Dollar cost average, pay attention to position sizing, get rich slowly meets my needs and is good enough for me.

Year  Book Value (billions)
2008 4,911
2009 6,403
2010 12,795
2011 16,751
2012 18,250
2013 17,781
2014 20,153
2015 21,568
2016 22,499
2017 24,052
2018 25,647
2019 31,228
2020 31,693
2021 42,210
2022 39,608
Print the post


Author: dealraker   😊 😞
Number: of 15062 
Subject: Re: BN fair value
Date: 05/31/2023 8:18 AM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 4
Alexander Steinberg's writings will I think over time steer more towards the competition for cash and distributable earnings (that actually are not distributable earnings) within BN. It isn't that this is anything new, it is that the somewhat new environment that BN finds itself within probably changes the story to some extent.

I inherited some things like North Carolina Railroad (they own - or owned, still own but are NC state owned now) - the railroad property that Norfolk Southern uses from Raleigh to Charlotte which were an interest of the broker my dad used back in the 1960's and 1970's. That's what led me to Brascan, it was the dams and whatnot, and of course the less than 10 PE constantly. A small investment, but unlike most value investors I'm not a active buy/sell type, I just hold stocks for the most part.

My guess is that BN is more attached to being able to borrow at reasonable interest rates and being able to rake in new investment money than any sort of hero investing by management - something I think is an infatuation but not reality by many shareholders. It is the fee business that's the super-charger.

Anyway, Steinberg wanted to question the distributable earnings concept but SeekingAlpha simply would not let him do that. Yes, as he mentions, SA does monitor contributor content and they also monitor anyone who questions accounting or accounting use.

When management of Brookfield began the plan value thing, when they celebrate things that are obviously not as celabratory as sold to investors - there is surely more of this within the organization.

Low stock prices, if overtime proven to be low, can make investors too pessamistic and surely I'm not above that effect. We will see. Endless 20% though? I'm getting down to 8% over time which should be a market beater still.
Print the post


Author: mdtls   😊 😞
Number: of 15062 
Subject: Re: BN fair value
Date: 05/31/2023 1:48 PM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 1
If Bruce & Co can deliver me inflation +7-8% over the next 30 years I would be more than satisfied.

1 foot hurdle?
Print the post


Author: dealraker   😊 😞
Number: of 15062 
Subject: Re: BN fair value
Date: 06/08/2023 4:16 PM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 3
Years of competition for a Brookfield cheerleading championship seem to have rolled somewhat into a "What's this?" type environment - at least for now. Interesting stuff all around now for us Brookfield types.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/636a46c59a6...
Print the post


Author: Lear 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 15062 
Subject: Re: BN fair value
Date: 06/16/2023 2:07 PM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 4
Old dealraker, can I ask why you continue to hold?

I made a tidy market-beating sum on this thing and related (BPY) over the years, but I've slowly but substantially trimmed my exposure out of a years-long admission that I don't really know what's behind the curtains and out of some concerns re: changes in the macro risk environment.

So I'm curious why you continue to hold. I think you've mentioned it in the past (buy and hold principles?) but I don't recall the reason. My current belief is this thing is the "too hard" pile, if I'm honest, and I should dump my old holdings on that basis (getting lucky in the past isn't good grounds for maintaining a position). But I haven't brought myself to dump my remaining holdings.

Put another way, do you have a pitch on why I should hold?
Print the post


Author: dealraker   😊 😞
Number: of 15062 
Subject: Re: BN fair value
Date: 06/16/2023 3:38 PM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 5
Not only do I continue to hold, I add tads of BN and BAM here and there as dividends/funds accumulate and I buy various stocks depending on various stuff:

06/12/2023 Buy 100 BNPopup BROOKFIELD CORPRATON VTG CL A @ $31.9850
05/31/2023 Buy 159 BNPopup BROOKFIELD CORPRATON VTG CL A @ $29.9850
05/31/2023 Buy 441 BNPopup BROOKFIELD CORPRATON VTG CL A @ $29.9800
05/30/2023 Buy 200 BAMPopup BROOKFIELD ASST MGMT CL A LTD VTG SHS @ $30.8200
05/24/2023 Buy 100 BNPopup BROOKFIELD CORPRATON VTG CL A @ $30.6850
05/24/2023 Buy 100 BNPopup BROOKFIELD CORPRATON VTG CL A @ $30.6899
05/22/2023 Buy 393 BNPopup BROOKFIELD CORPRATON VTG CL A @ $31.3095
05/17/2023 Buy 400 BNPopup BROOKFIELD CORPRATON VTG CL A @ $30.8600
05/17/2023 Buy 400 BAMPopup BROOKFIELD ASST MGMT CL A LTD VTG SHS @ $31.4101
05/15/2023 Buy 400 BNPopup BROOKFIELD CORPRATON VTG CL A @ $30.7800
05/15/2023 Buy 147 BAMPopup BROOKFIELD ASST MGMT CL A LTD VTG SHS @ $31.6099
05/15/2023 Buy 253 BAMPopup BROOKFIELD ASST MGMT CL A LTD VTG SHS @ $31.6100
05/05/2023 Buy 400 BNPopup BROOKFIELD CORPRATON VTG CL A @ $31.2699
05/03/2023 Buy 380 BNPopup BROOKFIELD CORPRATON VTG CL A @ $30.8200
05/03/2023 Buy 20 BNPopup BROOKFIELD CORPRATON VTG CL A @ $30.8100
04/26/2023 Buy 299 BNPopup BROOKFIELD CORPRATON VTG CL A @ $31.6100

Old deal ain't dead yet. And I posted earlier buys in an earlier post, bought some BAM at $27 and something too.

Mainly though bought a bunch of Blue Owl, a whole lot of Blue Owl at $10.

Boards tend to become cheerleading rather than rational and our experience with BPY should be a reminder. Many were stating it would be a near double digit bagger within ten years and my guess the property is worth about what it was when those fabulous forecasts were made.

But I'm not negative, but you don't have to slew endless compliments when endless complements aren't logical. I'm an onwer of Brookfield stuff probably longer than anyone here by at least a decade if not more.

I made endless less than complimentary remarks about Norfolk Southern recently, some would call them assaultive insults. At about $200 I added about $200K to a stock that has been in my family for 83 years.

Life is great...if you can stand it.
Print the post


Author: dealraker   😊 😞
Number: of 15062 
Subject: Re: BN fair value
Date: 06/16/2023 6:39 PM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 4
As to what make me hold and buy more?

Bruce Flatt is a proven marketeting success and it surely does not appear to be a waining model. Unlike other who think the Brookfield organization is a superior investing organization, my view is that their selling ability (to institutions, governments, wealthy groups/people) is superb.

My belief too is that as long as Brookfield can borrow money, as long as they have access to funds, I think BN and BAM will do well. 20%? No, but 10% yes. And that, at least in my view, whallops the market.

I'd be wary of getting in a vulnerable situation with Brookfield management, and that can be either with a sub or anything else where they own control, as they can take advantage of things in a manner unlike Berkshire or Markel, or even Fairfax, etc.

The fee business is the power here in my view.

I'm a little bit too in the mindset that most of the time, but not all the time, the huge multi-deminsional emtities like Berkshire and Brookfield will be more likely to sell at pretty good discounts to sum of the parts figures. But for short periods, every now and then, surely investors will swarm BN and BAM. A big tech sell off...yea, that would do it.

And that's when the slightest reality post won't get any pushes on the likes tab.

Remember, in recent times on the Berkshire board it was so popular to state emphatically that Berkshire was undervalued while the S & P was over-valued. All while the posters stating these things, nearly all of them in unison, would also make a case for an assortment of the under-valuation of Amazon...or Alphabet...or Meta...or Microsoft...or Apple...and this was going on for years. The likes were endless on Berk bargain/S & P over-valued...

...and it never came to be for decades now.

Brookfield has been a fabulous business. But plan value isn't good and 20% forward isn't either. Am I negative? No.
Print the post


Post New
Unthreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (14) |


Announcements
Berkshire Hathaway FAQ
Contact Shrewd'm
Contact the developer of these message boards.

Best Of BRK.A | Best Of | Favourites & Replies | All Boards | Followed Shrewds