Always treat others with respect and kindness, even if you disagree with them. Avoid making personal attacks or insulting others, and try to maintain a civil and constructive tone in your discussions.
- Manlobbi
Halls of Shrewd'm / US Policy
No. of Recommendations: 3
how weird is it that maddeningly-unindicted sex pest Matt Gaetz is now the host of a fringe-channel tv show? not as weird, apparently, as the clownfuckingly bizarre notions that rattle around inside Tennessee Rep. Tim Burchett’s head. here’s a thing Tim actually believes: that space aliens live under the ocean — and the government is hiding this from us
Burchett: “I’ve talked to people that are sonar people, and the way they hide it from us, Matt, they say it’s because our sonar — I believe, I haven’t been briefed on this, this is just from what I’m putting together — but we have some secret sonar. but what’s so crazy about it, like we’re hiding it from the Chinese … but when they tell me something’s moving at hundreds of miles an hour, underwater … this one, it was larger than a football field, underwater. and this was a document case, and I have an admiral telling me this stuff.”
Gaetz: “so that’s where you think the bases are, is underwater then.”
Burchett: “I do, I do. I think, traveling light years, I think it happens, I think it’s possible.”
ohhhh-kaaaaaay. where do you even start with this gibberish? I’m really fucking tempted to ask, “Tim, all these space aliens and sonar experts and this admiral, are they in the room with us right now?” but I’m afraid Tim’s answer would be “yes, they are.”
people of Tennessee’s 2nd district, this is your elected official: a guy who when confronted — on live TV — with evidence of insurrectionists clubbing the shit out of cops on Jan 6, refused to believe it. but space aliens zipping through the oceans at hundreds of miles an hour? absolutely.
Tiedrich
No. of Recommendations: 5
What's sad is that a lot of people get their information from programs like this. Instead of from, oh, a scientist (regarding traveling light years). Someone who actually knows something.
No. of Recommendations: 0
What's sad is that a lot of people get their information from programs like this. Instead of from, oh, a scientist
Do you believe it's impossible for an object to travel more than 100MPH underwater?
No. of Recommendations: 2
Do you believe it's impossible for an object to travel more than 100MPH underwater? - Dope
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That is more credible than believing a male can have a period.
No. of Recommendations: 1
That is more credible than believing a male can have a period.
For a bunch of people who bray about Muh Sciensssse as much as they do you'd think that at least one of them would, you know, know some science. But alas our libs...don't.
Supercavitation, or the idea that you could enclose an underwater object inside a gas bubble and from the GREATLY reduced drag propel it to extremely high speeds, has been on the drawing boards since the *1940s*. The Russkies finally got it right in the late 70s and fielded a torpedo called Shkval that can hit >200kts underwater.
They've been in the Russian inventory since 1977.
No. of Recommendations: 2
Probably not. Extremely difficult. I'm no fluid dynamicist, but the forces involved (and the shock waves), and speed-dependent friction...it would be a nightmare. At some point, you'd be dissipating so much energy to friction that it would boil the water. That would leave a very obvious track, both visually and sonically.
The laws of physics are very unforgiving.
No. of Recommendations: 1
Probably not. Extremely difficult. I'm no fluid dynamicist, but the forces involved (and the shock waves), and speed-dependent friction...it would be a nightmare. At some point, you'd be dissipating so much energy to friction that it would boil the water. That would leave a very obvious track, both visually and sonically.
The laws of physics are very unforgiving.And yet, when there's a will there's a way:
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/russias-2...Note for unit conversion purposes: 1 knot = 1 nautical mile per hour = ~1.15 miles per hour.
No. of Recommendations: 4
That's a torpedo, not a manned object.
Also, "super-cavitating" is loud. Very loud. Which would be detected by (among other things) SOSUS.
The fasted experimental sub was something above 50mph. The Russian Alfa (the fastest sub that saw actual service) was 47mph.
Drag (friction) goes as the square the velocity in a fluid. So you can optimize the drag coefficient (by streamlining the object per the laws of physics), but since you can never get it to zero, the faster you go, the drag is exponential.
A bullet (very streamlined, though not optimized since the back of the bullet is flat, not tapered) will lose all of it's energy in about a meter of water.
No. of Recommendations: 1
That's a torpedo, not a manned object.
So? Who says you can't scale the technology up?
Also, "super-cavitating" is loud. Very loud. Which would be detected by (among other things) SOSUS.
Which wasn't the point. The point was to demonstrate that a) the physics is understood and b) things that make use of it are in service already and have been for years.
What do you think an aerial version of this might look like? Is there any possibility of a similar thing in the atmosphere?
No. of Recommendations: 4
Dopey puts on his Captain Nemo hat: Do you believe it's impossible for an object to travel more than 100MPH underwater?
No. of Recommendations: 6
That's a torpedo, not a manned object.
Correctomundo!
Damn.... them goalposts are moving faster than a shkval 2 that has a maximum range of about 9 miles.
Also, "super-cavitating" is loud. Very loud. Which would be detected by (among other things) SOSUS.
and the whacko Republican said it's bigger than a football field. A football field doing 230 mph underwayer.....
You don't need sonar to 'see' that. Seismometers all over the oceans would read that shit.
No. of Recommendations: 5
That is more credible than believing a male can have a period.
Talk about a strawman…..
No. of Recommendations: 0
Dopey puts on his Captain Nemo hat: Do you believe it's impossible for an object to travel more than 100MPH underwater?Some torpedoes can exceed 200 mph, and there's even an underwater anti-torpedo missile that can hit 500 mph!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_speed_rec...
No. of Recommendations: 8
Some torpedoes can exceed 200 mph, and there's even an underwater anti-torpedo missile that can hit 500 mph!</>
Bet they aren’t as big as football fields.
Bet they also aren’t as fast as the time between a right winger saying something preposterous….. and other right wingers posting irrelevant supportive information that does nothing to advance the first right winger’s assertion…….. all while attacking those who question the assertion for being ignorant.
No. of Recommendations: 0
Bet they also aren’t as fast as t
Why don't you just admit that objects can travel more than 100mph underwater?
It's called science.
No. of Recommendations: 6
Some torpedoes can exceed 200 mph, and there's even an underwater anti-torpedo missile that can hit 500 mph!
Are they as big as a football field?
No. of Recommendations: 11
Why don't you just admit that objects can travel more than 100mph underwater?
That’s not the thing that’s up for debate.
Yes, objects can travel over 100 mph. We’ve known that for some time and that Russian super torpedo was first unveiled years ago. Nobody debates that.
But can an object the size of a football field travel 285 mph underwater without showing up on various sensors all over the world?
C’mon Dope. SOSUS can pick up the sound of whales thousands of miles away. Have any seabed phones ever picked up the thundering of football stadium sized objects traveling at 285 mph. You know that such objects would be louder than hell.
Unless, of course, they employed the secret Klingon Acoustic Cloaking Device (KACD)….. hmmmm
No. of Recommendations: 0
That’s not the thing that’s up for debate
Sure it is. Oh, wait - you want to make some kind of point that Republicans are all teh stoopid and don’t know science? Welp, that’s not going to fly.
Is a supercavitating object going to be loud as all get out and have a lot of difficulty maneuvering? Sure will.
No. of Recommendations: 8
Sure it is. Oh, wait - you want to make some kind of point that Republicans are all teh stoopid and don’t know science? Welp, that’s not going to fly.
Of course I’m not making that argument. That would be as stupid as someone trying to put words in someone else’s mouth.
I agreed, as most have, with your revelation that most everyone already knows… objects can travel over 100 mph under water.
That’s exactly what I meant when I said “That’s not the thing that’s up for debate.”
No. of Recommendations: 0
I agreed, as most have, with your revelation that most everyone already knows… objects can travel over 100 mph under water.
Was everyone in this thread aware of that? Might want to go re-read it.
How many folks knew the term "supercavitation" and further knew that it's been in service since 1977?
I'm guessing not many. Even I didn't know the Soviets had it in 1977.
No. of Recommendations: 3
How many folks knew the term "supercavitation" and further knew that it's been in service since 1977?
Honestly, I can’t tell you when the first articles came out about it. Certainly, the Soviets weren’t talking about it, and I’m reasonably sure the USN wasn’t either. But certainly by 2000, I was seeing stuff about it, including in submarine fiction, and at least according to the fiction, it makes a hell of a racket.
The idea behind the technology, of course, is that the torpedo is not actually being slowed by the friction of water. Instead, its leading surface is enveloped in compressed air or other gas. Hence there is little drag. Hence, the torpedo can reach unbelievable speed.
But it’s no stealth technology for sure.
No. of Recommendations: 8
How many folks knew the term "supercavitation"
Count me in. At least at a rather basic level of understanding.
Cavitation (in this setting) is typically the process of a propeller creating a low pressure area in water - low enough that the water changes state into a gas bubble. As the propeller continues to move, the low pressure area moves and the gas bubble collapses quite violently. You can pop onto your favorite video site and find plenty of videos showing this cavitation. You've probably seen one - it's the bubbles that form around a boat propeller. (Since boat propellers are typically pretty close to the surface, the gas bubbles form easier and don't collapse as violently or as completely. They often hang around forming a trail in the water.)
That collapse does several things. It makes a lot of noise in the water. So submarines do their best to avoid it, as that sound can help the enemy locate the sub. It also tends to erode the propeller, wearing it away. That shortens the usable life of a propeller. Another problem of cavitation is that it causes drag, making the propeller less efficient.
Supercavitation is what you may have seen in slow motion photography of bullets going through water or ballistics gel. The speed of the projectile creates a low pressure area and resulting gas bubble that completely surrounds the bullet. Maintaining supercavitation around anything larger than a bullet would take a significant amount of energy. And you'd also have problems with control, as control surfaces would need to extent into the water to be at all useful.
Anything else you think us liberals are too stupid to understand?
--Peter
No. of Recommendations: 0
Anything else you think us liberals are too stupid to understand?
Did I start the thread accusing one side of being dumb?
Wasn’t me. I merely pointed out that, yes, indeed - it is in fact reality that something could travel >100mph under water.
No. of Recommendations: 1
Anything else you think us liberals are too stupid to understand?
--Peter
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Just playing along for fun here.
I wouldn't use the word stupid because most of you are pretty damn smart, although misguided.
So let me put it this way, you liberals are to stubborn to understand is why the MAGA movement prevailed in the last election.
No. of Recommendations: 9
So let me put it this way, you liberals are to stubborn to understand is why the MAGA movement prevailed in the last election.
1 Eggs
2 All those DEI hires like Kamala
3. Revenge for stealing the 2020 election
4. The horrible crime ridden, inflTion wracked economy
5. Criminal migrants eating cats and dogs in Springfield
6. The Ukraine war that Trump will solve even before he walks into the oval office.
7. Hunter’s laptop
8. Liberals call us stupid
Pick one. Pick two or three. Hell, pick em all. The zone hAs been buried in shit so there might even be more under the encrusted surface.
No. of Recommendations: 5
you liberals are to stubborn to understand is why the MAGA movement prevailed in the last election.
eggs
No. of Recommendations: 9
Wasn’t me. I merely pointed out that, yes, indeed - it is in fact reality that something could travel >100mph under water.
I would like to state unequivocally that light travels through water at the speed of 205,600 mph, which if my math is correct, is 205,500 mph faster than 100 mph.
So, obviously, the JSL (Jewish Space Lasers) are wreaking havoc with our oceans by traveling light years in a matter of seconds (I know, if only Einstein knew) which is apparently enough to confuse the “it’s got to be a conspiracy” wing of MAGA.
Well, it’s not really a wing, it’s the whole damn group. Because reality can’t be real without some kind of bat shit crazy conspiracy.
America is so screwed.
No. of Recommendations: 2
Well, it’s not really a wing, it’s the whole damn group. Because reality can’t be real without some kind of bat shit crazy conspiracy.
And here we go.
Some of the libs would make excellent hockey referees.
No. of Recommendations: 0
Point taken, but I'm no right winger. I'm also no expert on alien submarine technology, but I wouldn't say it's physically impossible for something to erroneously appear to be as large as a football field travelling at 200 mph under water. A tight-packed "school" of smaller things comes first to mind.
No. of Recommendations: 5
I forgot to add that regardless of any science that might allow fast submarine propulsion, Rep.
Tim Burchett is still a moron and there is currently no good evidence for anything real the size of a football field travelling at 200 mph underwater.
No. of Recommendations: 9
Tim Burchett is still a moron and there is currently no good evidence for anything real the size of a football field travelling at 200 mph underwater.
Cavitation supercavitation... lol. Doing high speed camera work on the firing bench into gel, watermelons, doll heads, was a lot more fun that the required dye transfer printing we were required to learn. Cavitation, one of the first things a boater learns about -unconservative, liberal or independent.
It's hard to keep up with the whacko conspiracy theories. The zone is flooded. A state's -deep or otherwise- chances of survival drops precipitously in this much shit.
There are so many survey vessels plying the depths, surveying for a wide range of industries, that the notion of large undetected objects running at high speed is ludicrous.
The conspiracy to keep secret the existence of such anomalies would be huge, requiring the complicity of the oil, mineral, cable laying, turbine placing, military surveilling, fishing, and general scientific research survey vessels of national, military and multi-national corporations.
This stupidity ranks up there with the whacko belief that "big pharma" is keeping 'cures' secret because 'it's more profitable to treat than cure.'
Again the number of people in the healthcare field who also want to be cured makes it extremely unlikely that a 'cure' for anything could be kept secret.In fact, it's damned hard to keep secret the results of advanced clinical trials as the patients in the trials form side groups and yak about their progress, speculating as to who is getting placebo and who's getting the good stuff.
No. of Recommendations: 8
And here we go.
Indeed.
Looking back on the thread, you and BHM quickly got us distracted from the initial subject - specifically that a US Representative and a former Rep are spreading insane shit about some secret sonar identifying a huge vessel traveling at very high speeds underwater.
The conversation is a bit disjointed and hard to follow, but somehow China seems to be involved.
The point here is that this kind of disjointed, crazy talk seems to be typical of this particular Congressman. It’s unclear whether he actually believes this stuff or is deliberately being unclear to allow conspiracy theories to grow and spread.
Neither is a good look for a member of Congress.
-Peter
No. of Recommendations: 4
you liberals are to stubborn to understand is why the MAGA movement prevailed in the last election.
Let's cut to the chase: a whole lot of racism.
No. of Recommendations: 5
So let me put it this way, you liberals are to stubborn to understand is why the MAGA movement prevailed in the last election.
I don't think that's true. Most liberals correctly identify that the MAGA movement prevailed for three main reasons: i) dissatisfaction with high rates of inflation that unseated incumbent parties all over the world; ii) dissatisfaction with immigration/border policies; and iii) personal issues related to Biden, especially his age. There's countless other points of disagreement between MAGA and liberals, but those are the three main factors that probably made the difference.
True, there are liberals that are staunch immigrant advocates who don't want #2 to be true, and so they push back on it a lot. But I don't think that's stubbornness so much as advocacy. The same way that the most fervent opponents of abortion will say in public that they think that the GOP can push for a full ban on abortion nationwide without that hurting them in elections, but know in their hearts that's probably not true and aren't going to be able to convince the GOP otherwise.
No. of Recommendations: 1
Looking back on the thread, you and BHM quickly got us distracted from the initial subject - specifically that a US Representative and a former Rep are spreading insane shit about some secret sonar identifying a huge vessel traveling at very high speeds underwater. - Peter
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I don't recall commenting on the topic of high speed underwater motion. In fact I learned a lot from the discussion about cavitation envelopes and the capabilities of modern torpedoes, so remind me what I did to be included in your assertion.
By the way, even though I didn't (as best as I can remember) jump in on the conversation, I don't believe an object as big as the one under discussion could travel that fast. Heck I was surprised to learn that torpedoes can go as fast as they do.
No. of Recommendations: 1
you liberals are to stubborn to understand is why the MAGA movement prevailed in the last election.
Let's cut to the chase: a whole lot of racism. - ges
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Don't forget fascism...
No. of Recommendations: 5
<<"Neither is a good look for a member of Congress.">>
Reading the comments on Trump's firing the IGs, a MAGA congressman said something to the effect of
--- 'if it's a bad law Trump needs to break it.'
Sigh.
No. of Recommendations: 2
A tight-packed "school" of smaller things comes first to mind.
Good point.
These threads get so convoluted at times, but if, by chance, you think I was responding to something you said earler in this discussion- it wasn’t you.
No. of Recommendations: 1
Lol. And there it is! Raaaacism.
No. of Recommendations: 2
The conspiracy to keep secret the existence of such anomalies would be huge,...
This is where most conspiracy theories fail. They would require the cooperation of large numbers of people and organizations, often some of those people and organizations having no incentive to keep up the charade.
This stupidity ranks up there with the whacko belief that "big pharma" is keeping 'cures' secret because 'it's more profitable to treat than cure.'
Yeah, there would be huge profit in curing -say- cancer.
Tangential to this, however, are orphan drugs. It's not profitable to make the drugs because so few people have condition X, so those people suffer even though there is a treatment.
No. of Recommendations: 1
By the way, even though I didn't (as best as I can remember) jump in on the conversation, I don't believe an object as big as the one under discussion could travel that fast. Heck I was surprised to learn that torpedoes can go as fast as they do.
They have to worry less about cavitation. It doesn't matter if a torpedo is silent, or at least not that much. It's much smaller, so even if noisy, it's still relatively quiet. It's more an issue for guidance/control (cavitation can disrupt control surfaces). But various underwater listening devices likely will detect it if a torpedo is fired, even if they didn't detect the submarine that fired it. That likely won't save the ship it was aimed at.
A lot of research was put into propeller designs for subs. You want maximum performance without cavitation.
No. of Recommendations: 4
Yeah, there would be huge profit in curing -say- cancer.
My dermatologist was dx'd with a similar lymphoma/same year as my wife. She went into clinical trials, hoping for the brass ring.
He went into a bone marrow transplant program, also hoping for cure.
Both are doing well 20+ years later. Both therapies developed with cooperation of the NIH.
That the orange stable genius has shitcanned the NIH is unfathomable. Lots of people will die because of his sheer, arrogant, ignorant stupidity.
Tangential to this, however, are orphan drugs. It's not profitable to make the drugs because so few people have condition X
That's true. It would be cost prohibitive to make monoclonal bodies for every idiotype of every cancer.
The earliest form of Biogen's blockbuster drug, Rituxan, was a personalized monoclonal antibody custom made from a patients specific tumor sample. The cost was ginormous. So, Stanford's Dr. Levy created the modified MAB that targets all b-cells (malignant and healthy). The downside; it wreak havoc with one's marrow (immune system). The upside, it's relatively affordable, easy to tolerate, and can result in long long remissions. (lymphoma killed JackieO in 5 years. Onc says my wife's in good health ;-) except for the cancer in complete remission.
I've wondered if one could persuade a guy like Dr. Levy to make a personalized MAB on request (for those who don't have to ask what it costs)
No. of Recommendations: 0
These threads get so convoluted at times, but if, by chance, you think I was responding to something you said earler in this discussion- it wasn’t you.
Ok, thanks for clarifying.
No. of Recommendations: 2
I'm also no expert on alien submarine technology, but I wouldn't say it's physically impossible for something to erroneously appear to be as large as a football field travelling at 200 mph under water.
Very possible. There are oscillating layers deep in the ocean (waves), some based on thermoclines,and the speed increases with depth. If you get a rogue or just odd wave, it can move up higher and could be as large as a football field, but most of what you are detecting is movement up and down. A tsunami has speeds up to 600 miles and hour, travels in a short long wave, and then piles up near shallows. If you are in the right spot so that your detector is reflecting off the face of one of those waves, it will look like it's traveling very fast.
No. of Recommendations: 2
I don't think that's true. Most liberals correctly identify that the MAGA movement prevailed for three main reasons: i) dissatisfaction with high rates of inflation that unseated incumbent parties all over the world; ii) dissatisfaction with immigration/border policies; and iii) personal issues related to Biden, especially his age. There's countless other points of disagreement between MAGA and liberals, but those are the three main factors that probably made the difference. - albaby
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Thanks albaby, that is a reasonable perspective and while that may be true in general for some liberals, you don't see much of that sort of response on this board. Here, we MAGAs are a collection of cultists; or MAGA voters are being deceived by a grifter, racist, fascist; or you MAGAs don't know you are a laughingstock for supporting a <insert loathsome description here> pile of excrement that is Trump. I don't mind the name calling at all and find much of it entertaining.
No. of Recommendations: 3
--- 'if it's a bad law Trump needs to break it.'
And Trump is good at that. He's had a lot of experience breaking laws.
No. of Recommendations: 2
Mike...what albaby said and what you said can both be true at the same time. You ARE being deceived by a grifter/racists/wanna-be-authoritarian, and could still have voted for that pile of excrement because of inflation and the border.
