Always keep in mind that one million times zero equals zero.
- Manlobbi
Stocks A to Z / Stocks B / Berkshire Hathaway (BRK.A) ❤
No. of Recommendations: 11
Why does the GOP target transgender people?
There's not a shred of evidence that they are threats to anyone.
All they want is to live peacefully as their true selves.
But targeting trans people is a way to stir up the base,
stoking the fear and hatred that the GOP is dependent on. (Build that wall! Ban those Muslims! Don't say gay!)
Wishing all you homophobes a super uncomfortable month...
Cheers!
No. of Recommendations: 4
Why does the GOP target transgender people?
There's not a shred of evidence that they are threats to anyone.
All they want is to live peacefully as their true selves. - vsg
----------------------
I have no problem or issue with the trans people or the drag scene in general. They are adults who have made a choice that I wouldn't make but like you say, chill and live peacefully. In fact, I find the drag queens fun and interesting. I am referring to the campy showy RuPaul sort of drag queen, not the bump and crotch grinding type.
However, when they insist that tolerance requires involving your children in their lifestyle is where I draw the line. This is especially so when they collude with some school boards and teachers in keeping these programs secret from the children's parents.
Live your life, leave the kids alone, and you would find most conservatives have no problem with you.
No. of Recommendations: 4
However, when they insist that tolerance requires involving your children in their lifestyle is where I draw the line.
What does "involving your children in their lifestyle" mean?
Albaby
No. of Recommendations: 4
bighairymike: However, when they insist that tolerance requires involving your children in their lifestyle is where I draw the line. This is especially so when they collude with some school boards and teachers in keeping these programs secret from the children's parents.
Umm, huh? Care to link to a few of these examples, please?
No. of Recommendations: 2
What does "involving your children in their lifestyle" mean?
Albaby
---------------
Lewd Drag Queen performances in venues where children are present.
Requiring women to observe penises in women's restrooms and locker rooms.
No. of Recommendations: 7
Lewd Drag Queen performances in venues where children are present.
Requiring women to observe penises in women's restrooms and locker rooms.
Some real examples, please, of LEWD drag queen performances in venues where kids are present! I've never seen a single inappropriate one. Nor a lewd drag queen performance in public areas people by only adults. And I live in Greenwich Village, close by a little park that often has drag performances on weekends, and in a neighborhood that's flooded by pride parade participants every year.
As far as bathrooms......the toilets in women's bathrooms are in cubicles with doors that close and lock. No genital exposure there, for sure. As for locker rooms, there are also bathrooms with enclosed cubicles. There are ways of handling this for privacy on both sides.
No. of Recommendations: 1
Lewd Drag Queen performances in venues where children are present.
How did the children get into those venues? They're not having lewd drag queen performances in schools. Presumably if parents are bringing their kids to these venues, the parents are making the determination that they're appropriate for their kids and not actually lewd. No one's forcing your kid to see a lewd performance against their will.
Requiring women to observe penises in women's restrooms and locker rooms.
Bathrooms are, indeed, a difficult environment because of full or partial nudity.
No. of Recommendations: 1
albaby1: Bathrooms are, indeed, a difficult environment because of full or partial nudity.
I've never seen anyone fully or partially nude in a public bathroom. Is that a Florida thing?
No. of Recommendations: 1
No. of Recommendations: 4
<<Lewd Drag Queen performances in venues where children are present.
Requiring women to observe penises in women's restrooms and locker rooms.>>
OK so you don't have any actual evidence that either of these things have happened, ever?
(I've been using public restrooms for a long time, and I've never seen a vagina or a penis or a trans person for that matter, ever. I keep my eyes on my own paper. Its not complicated.)
Without any evidence, I'm gonna conclude that these are more phony right-wing bedtime stories, intended to stoke fear and hate. (It works! Right Mike?)
Lastly, if you actually care about the welfare of children here's something for you to be legitimately concerned with...
Guns are the leading cause of death for children in America.
How about doing something about that?!
No. of Recommendations: 1
I've never seen anyone fully or partially nude in a public bathroom. Is that a Florida thing?
BHM had mentioned locker rooms as well. Those facilities will typically involve showers and dressing/undressing, raising the likelihood of full or partial nudity.
No. of Recommendations: 3
No. of Recommendations: 2
albaby1: BHM had mentioned locker rooms as well.
You specifically wrote bathroom: Bathrooms are, indeed, a difficult environment because of full or partial nudity.
Let's not add fuel to the fire, eh?
No. of Recommendations: 1
You specifically wrote bathroom: Bathrooms are, indeed, a difficult environment because of full or partial nudity.
My bad. I was responding to his post about bathrooms and locker rooms, and thinking in my head only typed the former.
No. of Recommendations: 9
bighairymike:
Take your pick
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=video+lewd+drag+q...
Okay, I did. The first article was about a drag performance in Fairfax, VA. Nothing there about lewd behavior, just "the city's pride celebration, where drag queens are scheduled to dance."
Next one: DC Public Library is co-hosting a Drag Storytime with performer IttyBitty in Adams Morgan, where "children of all ages" are invited to learn about "diversity, self-love and an appreciation of others." Yeah, nothing lewd there, either.
Next: Six Flags amusement parks hosting Pride Month drag shows for 'all ages', assures guests they're 'PG' and says "Anyone under 17 should consult with a parent or guardian if there is concern over the performances". So, nothing lewd.
0 for 3.
Republicans sure do love to hate queers, transgender individuals, and drag queens.
No. of Recommendations: 2
No. of Recommendations: 0
<<0 for 3.
Republicans sure do love to hate queers, transgender individuals, and drag queens.>>
Bingo!
Common, you nailed it, as usual!
As for you GOPers living with all the hate, you must be exhausted, maybe take a few days off?
No. of Recommendations: 1
You just targeted LGBTQ also.
Good, take a break from Paternalistic Racism towards each group of hyphenated Americans and we'll see you back next month to resume that.
And this writer doesn't want to b an Muslims.
I want Liberal White Racists in France, and their hijab bans to be defeated, and their killings in Mali....'dealt with'.
No. of Recommendations: 3
Live your life, leave the kids alone, and you would find most conservatives have no problem with you.
There's a long history of persecution of gays, etc., that shows this isn't so. If there isn't a problem one will be fabricated because it energizes the base.
No. of Recommendations: 0
No. of Recommendations: 1
Take your pick
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=video+lewd+drag+q...Not really. "Take your pick" makes it sound like a whole bunch of drag shows in front of children that should have been "adults only". But that's not at all what I found. Most of the reports were of a single incident that occurred after school hours, organized by the high school's LBGTQ club and sanctioned by a teacher. A drag dancer straddled a seated teen, which caused a ruckus and got everyone in trouble.
There was a report of a dancer performing in front of kids who spread his legs asking for tips. The photo simply shows the performer in a leotard and boots, seated on the stage with legs in a split.....the way you'll see dancers and gymnasts all the time. The leotard wasn't high cut, wasn't exposing anything, wasn't suggestive.
There was a report of an inappropriate Christmas drag show in Texas that was in front of children. Sounds to me like the problem was with the organizers, not with drag shows in general.
No. of Recommendations: 3
You guys are kind of funny --- if it were funny indeed.
The left ones here claim the right ones are stirring up this and that, with complaints about drag queens, being intolerant etc. etc.
Just one question from an outsider (coming to those posts over the "Best of" feature with many rec's for them): What's the purpose of the very first post in this thread, initiating it, by saying this:
... targeting trans people is a way to stir up the base,
stoking the fear and hatred that the GOP is dependent on. (Build that wall! Ban those Muslims! Don't say gay!)
Wishing all you homophobes a super uncomfortable month...
Isn't that purpose to stir up your own base, to create angry reactions by the "enemy", in other words: To do what it claims to complain about: To stir up?
No. of Recommendations: 5
<<Isn't that purpose to stir up your own base, to create angry reactions by the "enemy", in other words:
To do what it claims to complain about: To stir up?>>
Thanks for asking. Actually the purpose was to maybe get an answer to the question. (The question you intentionally left out of your above quote.)
Why does the GOP target transgender people?
There's not a shred of evidence that they are threats to anyone.
All they want is to live peacefully as their true selves.
Still no answers.
No. of Recommendations: 0
So asking, really asking, not just putting in a rhetorical question, and asking both sides, not just seeking support from one's own group and stirring up the other, nowadays is done by ending with
Wishing all you homophobes a super uncomfortable month...
We are indeed living in interesting times 😂
No. of Recommendations: 2
You're the Said who said this, right?
<<Anyway, the humor free responses taught me a few things about Atheists and about this being the wrong forum for me.>> ~Said
I guess you were wrong, this is the right forum for you after all!
No. of Recommendations: 6
So asking, really asking, not just putting in a rhetorical question, and asking both sides, not just seeking support from one's own group and stirring up the other, nowadays is done by ending with
***********************
Wishing all you homophobes a super uncomfortable month...
************************
We are indeed living in interesting times
I understand your questioning and concerns, but I think that as a newcomer to this board, it's impossible to be aware of the underlying dynamics and basis of that "wish." There is a group here....thankfully, a small (but highly vocal, smug, and insulting) minority....that espouses the view of the world delineated by Trump, DeSantis, Abbott, etc. And that is what this comment reflects.
No. of Recommendations: 6
Why does the GOP target transgender people?
There's not a shred of evidence that they are threats to anyone.
All they want is to live peacefully as their true selves.
But targeting trans people is a way to stir up the base,
stoking the fear and hatred that the GOP is dependent on. (Build that wall! Ban those Muslims! Don't say gay!)
Wishing all you homophobes a super uncomfortable month...
Cheers!
Here are my feelings as a heterosexual man.
The above post is truth but not the complete truth.
Obviously as decent humans we should let anyone different from us live in peace and not target them. Anti-trans violence and hatred makes no sense.
However...
Trans people ARE thrusting themselves forward too much in public arena. No there aren't lewd drag queen performances, but I personally know that nearby libraries have drag queens reading children's books to kids. Why is this necessary? I think the intent is to expose children to people who look different from what the kids are used to. But why not do the same with midgets - excuse me, little people; circus freaks; very obese and so on?
I feel that they are being too showy and trying deliberately to provoke reactions. To see how far they can go before non-trans people say enough is enough.
I feel it's unfair to have biologically male trans athletes compete with biological females. This is not something the trans people get to decide unilaterally.
Similarly for trans criminals demanding accommodations in female prisons. In California the trans inmates have raped female prisoners are made them pregnant. This is unjust.
My friends in Bay Area are fed up with the DEI correctness. All of them are "normal" hardworking immigrant types. They have no anti-trans agenda. But it is ridiculous to have to remember everyone's pronouns. Again, being trans is your choice, but what people call you is their choice. "He" and "She" are not exactly the N-word.
So trans people, hear me well. You can antagonize your potential allies or adopt a softer, less confrontational posture and co-opt them. Your choice.
No. of Recommendations: 1
So trans people, hear me well. You can antagonize your potential allies or adopt a softer, less confrontational posture and co-opt them. Your choice.
So as not not confuse the issues, my previous post was only about trans people. Not the larger LGBTQ community which here in California is as mainstream and diverse as it gets. Nobody cares one way or another except a handful of homophobes and I guess super-Churchy people.
No. of Recommendations: 4
knighttof3:
Trans people ARE thrusting themselves forward too much in public arena.Uppity, aren't they?
This sounds similar to the way people talked about MLK, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and others who advocated for changes in the ways African Americans were treated.
knighttof3:
In California the trans inmates have raped female prisoners are [sic] made them pregnant. This is unjust.Link? I looked around but didn't find anything to substantiate your claim. I did find that of the more than 300 male inmates within the California prison system who identify as women and have requested to transfer to women's facilities, only one-in-ten applications have been approved.
Statistically, transgender and gendernonconforming (TGNC) inmates are 13 times more likely to be the
victims of sexual assault than cisgender prisoners. Link below.
knighttof3:
But it is ridiculous to have to remember everyone's pronouns. Again, being trans is your choice, but what people call you is their choice. Another look at history: when whites called a black man 'boy,' was that okay because it was their choice?
Frankly, the grousing about pronouns is silly to me. When someone corrects me about a pronoun, I adapt. How hard is that?
https://legacy.lambdalegal.org/know-your-rights/ar...
No. of Recommendations: 0
Said, where are you from? Perhaps you can enlighten us on how LGBTQ is handled in your country.
No. of Recommendations: 2
Why is this necessary?
1st amendment. As long as they aren't "shouting FIRE in a crowded theater" necessary has nothing to do with it.
I think the intent is to expose children to people who look different from what the kids are used to.
I grew up on the west side of LA. Lots of gay people and lots of homophobes. There was a lot of peer pressure from the surfing crew I hung out with at the beach, so I as a kid I mimicked their homophobic crap, "talking shit" about the gay people who frequented the south end of "our beach" (localism is still a 'thing' in surfing).
When I started working and traveling and meeting a lot of people outside my circle of high school and surfing friends, I realized the gay people around the world don't deserve the crap they get from so many people. Hopefully the events to which you object expose people to the reality that LGBTQ are not what's wrong with the world.
But why not do the same with midgets - excuse me, little people; circus freaks; very obese and so on?
Some of of them have had their problems with a-holes too.
Maybe LP CF VO should be added to the alphabet soup of anti-bigotry events and promotions.
That's a lot of letters. How SBAA instead? Stop Being An A--hole.
My family and friends in the bay area are fed up with bigots, anti-semites, and the common criminals breaking car windows.
No. of Recommendations: 1
Uppity, aren't they?
This sounds similar to the way people talked about MLK, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and others who advocated for changes in the ways African Americans were treated.
You are scoring debating points by pointing to my imperfect language. I hope you understood the intent.
Trans people are asking for unreasonable extra accommodation, not just equal rights. Equality is not under debate as it was for black people in 60s.
No. of Recommendations: 5
Said, where are you from? Perhaps you can enlighten us on how LGBTQ is handled in your country.
No, I can't. I don't even know what LGBTQ stands for nor the even longer and more complex abbreviation (every year another group and character added?) I just read today in a I think Swiss newspaper. I don't know because I don't want to know, as I refuse to participate in those "games".
A few years ago I received a "warning shot" that life is not indefinite. A few days ago again, with my Ex commenting: "Each human being on this Earth after being born is a ticking bomb". Thanks to those dramatic/traumatic "warning shots" my stance toward life changed.
Now I think those for whom there is nothing more important than their culture wars, political opinions and agendas, they can only find that soooo important as they are not aware that their life's will end. Yes, they are aware of that in their brain, analytical, cold and distant --- but not in their stomach.
Finding an enemy and fighting with him is a way for the ego to feel alive, to keep up the illusion of it's permanent existence. Occupying oneself by playing silly games is a great way to not having to deal with as somebody once called it "The Greatest Insult", one's own impermanence and ultimately death.
No. of Recommendations: 1
Very deep, Said!
In a way, this debate, this website, the whole online thing is celebrating Man's triumph over Nature :-)
Look how unafraid of death by predation and starvation we are, that we can afford to indulge in these silly games.
I have had time to reconcile with my death, initially fighting the idea but finally accepting it. It does change your valuation of various things in life quite dramatically. Liberating, in a way. Less struggling to be popular, more respect for real truth no matter how it is expressed. More real kindness too. Just my experience.
No. of Recommendations: 10
Trans people are asking for unreasonable extra accommodation, not just equal rights.
What is the unreasonable extra accommodation you believe they are asking for?
For example, trans people would like the exact same ability to volunteer to read a story to kids in a library as anyone else does. Upthread you mentioned little people, or overweight people - we would never pass legislation or policies making it unlawful for members of those groups to read to kids in a library. Why trans people? Why is that unreasonable?
Similarly, trans people would like the same ability to be depicted in literature as any other group - that books that depict a trans person as a parent, or a child, or at all should be able to be carried in school libraries the same as anyone else. We would never remove a book from the children's section just because it depicted a person in a wheelchair, or who was a little person, or who was overweight. It's not an "extra accommodation" for that same approach to apply to trans folks.
Albaby
No. of Recommendations: 1
I can relate to "warning shots". We retired due to our "warning shots". I had what turned out to be a benign tumor, but they didn't know it was benign until they went in to get it. It was almost inoperable. I got lucky I had one of the foremost specialists in the world (people fly in just to see him, but his office is about 30 miles from my house). Then 1poorlady had a not-benign tumor, and after surgery and chemo she is back to about 80%. And this was during COVID.
I figure I have about 20 years left, and I didn't want to work any more than I had to. Turned out, I didn't have to do any more than I had done. I'm not buying a boat anytime soon, but we have enough to last the rest of our lives.
We got back from 7 weeks in Asia, and we're doing another 4 weeks in Europe later this year. Go out and experience the world while we can.
As another poster said: your health will be fine until it isn't, and then it's all over.
No. of Recommendations: 2
I don't even know what LGBTQ stands for
Lesbian
Gay
Bisexual
Transsexual
Queer
and often now a + is added at the end to include everything else.
Finding an enemy and fighting with him is a way for the ego to feel alive, to keep up the illusion of it's permanent existence.
I don't think the motivation is the same for everyone, not by a long shot. There are a number of us who want to help to make a postitive difference while we are here on this (ever-warming) earth. We want to help those in need....people, animals, birds, insects, etc....and the environment to make a good difference during their life here on earth, and to hopefully leave a better world for those who come after us. This can also include trying to bring a sense of reality to the views of those who have been sabotaged by those who spread lies. Sometimes this becomes unpleasant. Some people walk away when that happens. Others keep fighting.
No. of Recommendations: 2
Trans people are asking for unreasonable extra accommodation, not just equal rights.
According to some people they are. According to some they are not. If the issue is not dealt with nothing will change.
Equality is not under debate as it was for black people in 60s.
Sure it is. I have a hunch you are neither black or LGBTQ.
No. of Recommendations: 2
Trans people are asking for unreasonable extra accommodation, not just equal rights.
I gave three examples in my original reply.
1. Competing with bio female athletes
2. Same housing as female prisoners
3. Insisting on others memorizing their chosen pronouns that are not obvious.
To sano, I am neither black nor LGBTQ. These are issues that affect me, however, since I am the one who has to bend over backwards for unreasonable demands.
To albaby, the point about midgets was that they are not insisting on reading books to kids. In fact, on planet Earth, it is easier for kids to understand height/weight differences than men dressing up as women. Whether that is logical or not, kids are kids. Why aren't libraries reaching out to little people or obese? Because of the trans community's recent noisy "me-me" attention grabbing media tactics.
No. of Recommendations: 6
knighttof3:
1. Competing with bio female athletesCurrently, more than 480,000 students compete as National Collegiate Athletic Association athletes. 50 out of the 480,000 are transgender athletes who openly compete in college sports.
So, 50 out of 480,000.
More than 8 million students compete in high school athletics.
Of the 15 transgender athletes competing in high school sports, only two are transgender girls according to the Associated Press.
There are more laws banning transgender athletes in the U.S. than there are transgender athletes.
knighttof3:
2. Same housing as female prisonersAddressed upthread.
knighttof3:
3. Insisting on others memorizing their chosen pronouns that are not obvious.I've never had anyone "insist" that I memorize their chosen pronouns. I don't think anyone actually would do so unless you're belittling their choices. Again, we discussed this upthread but why is this a big deal? If anything, it's a small courtesy that costs you nothing to comply.
https://nebraskaexaminer.com/2023/03/09/national-b....
https://www.newsweek.com/how-many-transgender-athl....
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transgender-athlete-b...
No. of Recommendations: 2
Now I think those for whom there is nothing more important than their culture wars, political opinions and agendas, they can only find that soooo important as they are not aware that their life's will end. Yes, they are aware of that in their brain, analytical, cold and distant --- but not in their stomach.
I think we have older folk here and some are aware I'm sure. I got diagnosed with HPV16+ cancer in my tonsil last year and had to adjust my calculation. Males in my family seem to die ~78 and from heart disease, but the last two years has cognitive decline and the last year bedridden. So good to 76. I was supposed to be Stage 1, and if lymph nodes weren't invaded I could get by with surgery alone. But the cancer was twice as large as they thought, and though lymph nodes were clear, there was perinueral invasion. So with 4.5 good years left do I do the radiation or not? Judgment call.
No. of Recommendations: 1
I think we have older folk here and some are aware I'm sure. I got diagnosed with HPV16+ cancer in my tonsil last year and had to adjust my calculation. Males in my family seem to die ~78 and from heart disease, but the last two years has cognitive decline and the last year bedridden. So good to 76. I was supposed to be Stage 1, and if lymph nodes weren't invaded I could get by with surgery alone. But the cancer was twice as large as they thought, and though lymph nodes were clear, there was perinueral invasion. So with 4.5 good years left do I do the radiation or not? Judgment call. - Lapsody
--------------------
Really sorry to hear. This is such a personal decision and until faced with it I am not sure how I would really respond. But if it was me, I would go for the treatment. Who knows, that 4.5 years may turn into 14.5 years. I might feel differently if those extra years were to be spent bedridden or in pain.
FWIW, my girlfriend was diagnosed with breast cancer and she went through the whole route - surgery (lumpectomy), chemo, and finally radiation. The radiation phase was really not that bad in her case. More or less a sunburn sort of discomfort for a few days after each treatment. She ultimately beat the cancer, this was ten or so years ago. Techniques have probably improved since then. Good luck and best wishes.
No. of Recommendations: 2
1. Competing with bio female athletes
2. Same housing as female prisoners
3. Insisting on others memorizing their chosen pronouns that are not obvious.
To sano, I am neither black nor LGBTQ. These are issues that affect me, however, since I am the one who has to bend over backwards for unreasonable demands.
You must be a female prisoner or biofemale athlete then, or have a traumatic story of being forced to memorize pronouns.
If these boards allowed illustrations you could show us on the doll where this pronoun issue hurt you.
No. of Recommendations: 3
So with 4.5 good years left do I do the radiation or not? Judgment call.In my experience.....meaning what I've learned through interviews with cancer specialists over the years, and using this to help others make adequately-informed decisions about their treatment......there's more to investigate before making your decision.
I don't know where you were assessed and had your surgery. But if it wasn't a top-level cancer hospital....not a department, but a hospital devoted to cancer....then I strongly suggest that you get a consult at such an institution that's convenient for you. I would also contact the Mederi Center in Ashland, OR. Although they treat all illnesses, cancer is a significant focus. And they work in conjunction with conventional treatments or as primary treatment. It's not just that they use nutritional supplements and herbs to treat illness. They are keenly up to date with the research literature, both for understanding individual cancers at the molecular level and for understanding which herbs and supplements can be effective, both for treatment and for ameliorating side effects of conventional treatments. I met Donnie Yance, Mederi's founder, toward the end of the 1990s when I wrote an article on some of his work. And he's really got the goods.
https://medericenter.org/If you'd like to email me privately to talk further about any of this, please feel free to do so.
No. of Recommendations: 5
sano: it hurts me in my gonads of good intent and common sense.
If you have a penis and I call you a HE, I am following my common sense. Not your arbitrary rule. You may want to be called HE today, SHE tomorrow or THEY next Monday. It doesn't matter to me.
As Lincoln said, (paraphrasing from memory) how many legs does a horse have if you call his tail a leg? Still four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it so.
Cross dressing men with penises are men. Trans women. Not "women" with no qualifiers. Biology is biology.
I am generous enough (or rational enough) to say that they are women if they have a vagina, whether acquired at birth or later surgically. Not otherwise.
No. of Recommendations: 2
I was just posing the dilemma I had, and the decision I looked at in the past. I went with the radiation after researching and thinking. UCI Health in Orange, CA is a top place, but the HPV 16+ is coming in with the baby boomers. It's essentially an STD I got from cunnilingus that takes 25-30 years to develop. But the jury isn't out because I smoked for 40 years off and on.
But the assessment is how much of the time I have left do I want to spend on recovering from radiation therapy vs. what are the odds and what happens if I'm unlucky? I opted for radiation treatment and I've been healing for six months now. But I took off across the USA, hitting Vegas, Zion Natl Park, Bryce Canyon, the Arches Natl Park, the Grand Canyon, Meteor Crater, Petrified Forrest, Roswell, Carlsbad Caverns, and 3 days in the French Quarter in New Orleans - so even while I heal, I get around and have fun and see sights.
No. of Recommendations: 3
I gave three examples in my original reply.
1. Competing with bio female athletes
2. Same housing as female prisoners
3. Insisting on others memorizing their chosen pronouns that are not obvious.
But none of those involve asking for anything extra. Just being asked to be treated equally.
Trans girls want to compete in girls' sports equal to all the other girls.
Trans women prisoners want to be housed in female prisons just like all the other women.
Trans people want you to call them by the correct pronouns just like you do everyone else.
Those are requests for equality, not special accommodations.
To albaby, the point about midgets was that they are not insisting on reading books to kids.
But they could. They have the right to volunteer at the library - and if they did, no one would object. At all.
That's the equality part. If you look at your local community calendar, you'll see countless groups and organizations organizing activities and volunteering and just generally being part of the community. Those activities are probably different than reading to kids - they might be organizing a fun run or arranging a beach clean up or doing a cultural class at the local community center. But every group is allowed to, even encouraged, to take part in making their community better. There's absolutely no reason to exclude drag queens from doing the same.
Albaby
No. of Recommendations: 3
knighttof3: Cross dressing men with penises are men. Trans women. Not "women" with no qualifiers. Biology is biology.
You have a basic misunderstanding or lack of knowledge of transgenderism, so additional discussion is kinda' pointless. IMHO.
No. of Recommendations: 2
<<Insisting on others memorizing their chosen pronouns that are not obvious.>> ~knighttof3
I've never seen anyone "insisting on others to memorize their chosen pronouns" but maybe it happened once.
That being said, I totally agree with you that having the common decency to call people what they want to be called is exhausting and unreasonable!
It's an extra accommodation, and one that I am not willing to make.
Which is why I just call people whatever I like!
From here on out I'm gonna call you Ball-Bag.
I'm sure you will not mind!
Have a wonderful day Ball-Bag!
No. of Recommendations: 2
Have a wonderful day Ball-Bag!
Thank you.
Pronouns are not arbitrary or malicious nicknames. They are a common convention and need to mean the same thing.
When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean ' neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master ' That's all.'
No. of Recommendations: 7
Pronouns are not arbitrary or malicious nicknames. They are a common convention and need to mean the same thing.
Which isn't at all inconsistent with calling people by the pronouns they identify with. Feminine pronouns are always used to refer to a person who identifies as female. Male pronouns are always used to refer to a person who identifies as male. Non-gendered pronouns (they/them) are always used to refer to a person whose gender is unknown or who doesn't have a gender.
In that rubric, they all mean the same thing. They just don't mean what you think they should mean (always a reference to biological factors), but instead they always refer to someone's gender identity. It's pretty basic stuff here - and just common courtesy.
No. of Recommendations: 1
Which isn't at all inconsistent with calling people by the pronouns they identify with. Feminine pronouns are always used to refer to a person who identifies as female. Male pronouns are always used to refer to a person who identifies as male. Non-gendered pronouns (they/them) are always used to refer to a person whose gender is unknown or who doesn't have a gender.
In that rubric, they all mean the same thing. They just don't mean what you think they should mean (always a reference to biological factors), but instead they always refer to someone's gender identity. It's pretty basic stuff here - and just common courtesy.
Completely agree. Just common courtesy.
From upthread:
Trans girls want to compete in girls' sports equal to all the other girls.
How do we make that work? I want transgender kids to be treated equally, and I want girls sport to thrive. How to achieve both?
No. of Recommendations: 4
AdrianC:
How do we make that work? I want transgender kids to be treated equally, and I want girls sport to thrive. How to achieve both?A couple of schools of thought: one, since there are so few transgender athletes in high school and college sports (who already face enormous prejudice in sports and in life), just let them compete. After all, there are many factors which differentiate individual performance, not just size and testosterone levels; two, create a Women's Sports Umbrella in which athletes would compete in the transgender scoring category only if they choose to join a women's team and possess the male-puberty performance advantage.
Generally, I think this is a non-issue that conservative politicians latched onto as red-meat for the hateful. I've had this discussion with some of my relatives who love hating transgender athletes in spite of not being able to name one or point out a competition that had been unfairly won by a transgender athlete.
Anyway, if interested, you can read about both paths at the following links:
https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-...https://www.forbes.com/sites/donnalopiano/2022/08/...
No. of Recommendations: 6
In that rubric, they all mean the same thing. They just don't mean what you think they should mean (always a reference to biological factors), but instead they always refer to someone's gender identity. It's pretty basic stuff here - and just common courtesy.
At a corporate convention in Las Vegas an attendee's name/city I.D. badge caused me to ask her if she had bought the franchise contract for that region. She told me that she had been a partner in the business with her brother (who I had met at a previous convention). I asked why he wasn't attending too. She said "He died."
That evening a small group of western contractors met to dine at a fancy steak house and hit the tables at the Hard Rock after dinner. Another contractor sat by me at the blackjack table and I asked him discretely if he knew Bill had died and his sister took over the business. He told me, "That is Bill." It took me a moment to process that, but I was totally fine with it. I did wonder how a veteran salvage diver could maintain such perfect fingernails.
In her mind, Bill did die and she was born. It would have been unacceptably rude and insulting had I insisted on using he/him pronouns for an associate that looked quite elegant that evening in a 'little black dress', high heels, perfect hair & makeup as we enjoyed our evening on the town. Besides, she was taller, considerably younger, and being as capable a salvage diver as me, very likely could have kicked my ass.
It's my understanding that the desire to be addressed with pronouns based on appearance began with college aged people -unafraid of social progress- about 5 yrs ago. It's not unreasonable to respect a persons choice based on obvious appearance. The bigotry towards trans people we are seeing now appears similar to that which other minorities have faced and continue to face from bigots.
No. of Recommendations: 3
How do we make that work? I want transgender kids to be treated equally, and I want girls sport to thrive. How to achieve both?
I don't know. Unlike most questions relating to trans rights, competitive sports for older kids and adults present some challenging issues that, although they arise in a very very very small number of situations, don't admit easy solutions. That's because the reason we segregate men's and women's sports today has nothing to do with the sociological construct of gender, but the biological aspects of sex characteristic.
One possible answer, of course, is to observe that there really isn't any practical inconsistency between the two goals right now. Given the trivially small rate of participation in sports by trans girls, their participation can't keep girls sport (writ large) from thriving. A very small number of individuals might end up having advantages because of their genetics and biology - but not often enough to have much of an impact. Plus, that happens in other contexts, and it doesn't keep those sports leagues from thriving. To use a trivial example, if you're competing in USTA youth leagues in the younger brackets and you haven't completed puberty yet, you're going to get crushed by the kids who have - no matter how hard you work, no matter how hard you practice, an 12-year-old who hasn't hit puberty will get demolished by someone who has completed puberty, OTBE.
No. of Recommendations: 11
I believe that LGBTQ is very much in the public eye, or in your face, if you prefer, because they are currently marginalized in our society. It is analogous to the state of the Gay community in the 60's and 70's where there was a fight for recognition. Argument that they are pushing themselves too much into the limelight suggests one would be fine if only the LGBTQ community would just stay in the closet. Then they could be equal, just not quite as equal. Being actually equal seems to be extra rights for LGBTQ people, for some.
Misunderstanding of that community is common. As an example; medical studies of transgender female athletes have shown that any vestige of advantage due to former male status rapidly evaporates with loss of endogenous testosterone production. Transgender females undergo orchiectomy. No transgender female keeps their testes. Indeed, some female athletes have higher serum testosterone levels than transgender females. (Aside, female testosterone production is responsible for female libido. There is a reason females produce it).
No issue is as simple nor as black and white as it appears on the surface. I respect that these issues are difficult to process and harder to understand. My own child came out as non-binary and my whole image of them had to undergo a frameshift. It comes down to, "do I want my child to be happy and authentic, or to live a hidden life for no valid reason".
I want everyone to be happy with themselves and live the life they are meant to.
fd
No. of Recommendations: 2
Misunderstanding of that community is common. As an example; medical studies of transgender female athletes have shown that any vestige of advantage due to former male status rapidly evaporates with loss of endogenous testosterone production.
LOL. That explains why Lia Thomas went from the 400th-something ranked male swimmer to NCAA female champ.
No. of Recommendations: 0
The pronoun argument is dumb. The odds of you ever meeting a shemale and flubbing on the pronouns are remote. And they aren't dumb, they can sense if you're a hostile dwarf mind, or just dealing with your curiosity and surprise awkwardly. I sense the problem most conservatives might have is that they can be d@mned attractive and you'll have to deal with your emotions about that, just don't kill hurt or kill them.
No. of Recommendations: 3
To use a trivial example, if you're competing in USTA youth leagues in the younger brackets and you haven't completed puberty yet, you're going to get crushed by the kids who have - no matter how hard you work, no matter how hard you practice, an 12-year-old who hasn't hit puberty will get demolished by someone who has completed puberty, OTBE.
That was me!
My mother insisted I start school a year early. At 15, I believe I was the youngest in my high school class, and among the smallest. Too small to compete in baseball/football in Los Angeles high schools, I would have spent those years on the bench.
But tennis I could play. I figured that if 5'6" Pancho Segura could hold his own against 6'2" Pancho Gonzales, I could hold my own in high school. I got dusted by some very large seniors who went on to get UCLA and USC tennis scholarships, but it was a thrill to play with guys who could hit that hard. I survived thanks to copying Segura's 2 handed forehand, especially on return of service.
There were no girls on our high school team who could have won in the boys division. There were many high school boys who would have ... and I am sure of this... dominated every match in the girl's division.
But that was before any kids were using drugs to make the change, so I don't know how that would factor in in a super competitive city league.
I do know size matters. Even in surfing, the average size advantage of men allows them to paddle faster for superior position. When the wind blows hard offshore on Maui, a Laird Hamilton at 6'3" 215 lbs can overcome that wind in his face while a 5'4" Bianca Valenti's 125lbs gets blown right back over the top of a big wave like a feather in the wind.
Nobody likes to lose when there's an obviously unfair advantage. Competitive sports will take some additional consideration.
No. of Recommendations: 1
The bigotry towards trans people we are seeing now appears similar to that which other minorities have faced and continue to face from bigots.
If a man is more comfortable identifying as a women and vice versa,
it's their business.
What I may think is of no concern to anyone else.
It is a matter of live and let live. Treat me with respect and I will do the same.
No. of Recommendations: 0
The one issue I have is athletic competitions with transwomen who transitioned AFTER puberty. I think that gives them an unfair advantage because they developed as male, and so (in general) are faster and stronger. Trans-surgery doesn't change that.
I don't lose any sleep over it. But then I'm not a woman who has devoted a lot of her life to training to compete, only to have a person who -in essence- doped-up on testosterone legally (it's not a crime to go through puberty) go up against me.
Off the top of my head, there may need to be a separate category for transpersons, just to level the playing field.
No. of Recommendations: 2
f a man is more comfortable identifying as a women and vice versa,
it's their business.
What I may think is of no concern to anyone else.
It is a matter of live and let live. Treat me with respect and I will do the same.
****
Yep.
Trouble is, for Trans-Taliban on the Left, that isn't enough.
No. of Recommendations: 7
If a man is more comfortable identifying as a women and vice versa,
it's their business.
What I may think is of no concern to anyone else.
No one cares what you think. They do care about what you do.
You have every right to think all kinds of anti-Catholic thoughts, for example. You can ruminate over and over again about how Protestantism is the one true faith, and how those "damnable Papists" are destroying the country.
But you're not allowed to engage in certain actions based on those beliefs. You can't refuse to hire Catholics (with some exceptions not relevant here). You can't go up to Catholic co-workers and berate them for their religious beliefs. You can't insult Catholic customers in your place of business because they're Catholic. Etc.
If you work at a big company, they're going to tell you that you shouldn't do certain things to your co-workers that might make them unhappy at work. One of those things will be (as noted above) that you shouldn't make them feel bad for having religious beliefs that are different than yours. Another will be that you shouldn't make them feel bad by using pronouns that don't line up with how they want to be referred to.
Albaby
No. of Recommendations: 1
No one cares what you think. They do care about what you do.
Did you not see where I said treat me with respect and I will do the same?
All the legal stuff you said is of course the Law and I respect that too.
The one thing I was taught growing up and have always lived by is,
'You go to your Church and I will go to mine, but we will all walk along together'
I think the author of that quote is Roy Rogers.
Another will be that you shouldn't make them feel bad by using pronouns that don't line up with how they want to be referred to.
Albaby
How about a little understanding and respect of my beliefs and they let it go with
respect towards me. I do not and will not go out of my way to make any person feel
uncomfortable. I expect the same for me and realize I too am of a different mindset.
Transgenders should not expect me (or anyone else) to fall in line for them with
what is uncomfortable for me (us).
No. of Recommendations: 1
The one issue I have is athletic competitions with transwomen who transitioned AFTER puberty. I think that gives them an unfair advantage because they developed as male, and so (in general) are faster and stronger. Trans-surgery doesn't change that.
This x1000. People who say, "A man who transitions just loses all the strength once the hormones kick in" lack a fundamental understanding of the full differences between trained male and female athletes. A man who's been powerlifting for decades and decides to transition is going to have huge advantages in bone density, heart/lung capacity and connective tissue over a female that's been trained for a similar length of time.
Off the top of my head, there may need to be a separate category for transpersons, just to level the playing field.
Either go man/woman/open or have it woman/open.
No. of Recommendations: 8
How about a little understanding and respect of my beliefs and they let it go with respect towards me. I do not and will not go out of my way to make any person feel uncomfortable.
Then there's no problem with using your best efforts to call them by the pronouns they want to be called by. Unless you're going out of your way to make them feel uncomfortable, that will take no effort at all.
I expect the same for me and realize I too am of a different mindset. Transgenders should not expect me (or anyone else) to fall in line for them with what is uncomfortable for me (us).
Why shouldn't they expect that of you? We don't allow people to wield their discomfort to engage in discrimination.
We expect people to refrain from discriminating against people based on their race or religion or sex, regardless of whether it makes them uncomfortable or not. It doesn't matter whether being around Aleuts or Sikhs or women makes you uncomfortable, or whether you have serious philosophical objections to transacting business with them - if you run a business, you have to accommodate those folks whether it makes you uncomfortable or not. And you're going to have to refrain from making statements or referring to them using terms that cause them discomfort based on their race or religion or sex - regardless of whether refraining from making those statements or using the terms you want to use causes you discomfort.
The reason we don't allow that is because in all those clashes of interests, we adjudge the internal discomfort of the discriminator to be less of a negative than the harms caused to the person being discriminated against. Why shouldn't trans people aspire to the same thing for themselves?
No. of Recommendations: 1
Transgenders should not expect me (or anyone else) to fall in line for them with
what is uncomfortable for me (us).
Do you feel you have been "expected to fall in line?"
If so, how you have been "expected to fall in line? "
No. of Recommendations: 1
Do you feel you have been "expected to fall in line?"
If so, how you have been "expected to fall in line? "
It was a hypothetical remark. If I were to have a conversation with a transgender I would
hope to have a mutual understanding and respect of our different mindset with no offense
taken by either of us as to how we address each other.
No. of Recommendations: 1
It doesn't matter whether being around Aleuts or Sikhs or women makes you uncomfortable,...
Just playing Devil's Advocate here...
How about women if you're orthodox Jew? I've read about incidents where they caused a fuss because they didn't want to sit next to women on an airplane, for example. Personally, I won't accommodate that any more than I would accommodate someone who didn't want to sit next to a black person.
No. of Recommendations: 3
Did you not see where I said treat me with respect and I will do the same?
If you respected the right of a woman to manage her own healthcare decisions, that sentence might be believable.
No. of Recommendations: 1
If you respected the right of a woman to manage her own healthcare decisions, that sentence might be believable.And your change of subject has to do with what? Or perhaps I am missing something
with your reply?
Or perhaps you are referring of a women's choice to kill her viable baby in the womb?
If that is the case it has nothing to do with me for the choice another women makes
except being sad for the life lost of a baby.
There are laws protecting women who became pregnant because of rape, incest or due to
the health of the mother.
And no, I'm not going to debate the subject.
Aren't these the cutest pictures?
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2023/06/snope...
No. of Recommendations: 2
'The one issue I have is athletic competitions with transwomen who transitioned AFTER puberty. I think that gives them an unfair advantage because they developed as male, and so (in general) are faster and stronger. Trans-surgery doesn't change that.'
Fairly good 'both sides' article here:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/...I believe Lia Thomas when she said this:
'Trans people don't transition for athletics. We transition to be happy and authentic and to be ourselves,' Ms Thomas told Good Morning America. 'Transition to get an advantage is not something that factors into our decisions.'
No. of Recommendations: 1
I was just posing the dilemma I had, and the decision I looked at in the past.
Your information gathering and decision making aren't actually all past tense. Because there are measures available for you to take that can make a critical difference in protecting against recurrence, either preventing it entirely or reducing its impact.
The Mederi Center can work out a prevention plan. Or you might want to work with Dale Bellisfield, a crackerjack medical herbalist and holistic nurse with many years of experience, especially in cancer.....and also having done additional training at the Mederi Center. She offers a no-charge phone discussion to gain a sense of how she would define and treat your issues. And then you decide if you want to work with her.
herbaldale.com
No. of Recommendations: 3
'Trans people don't transition for athletics. We transition to be happy and authentic and to be ourselves,' Ms Thomas told Good Morning America. 'Transition to get an advantage is not something that factors into our decisions.'
And yet, she looked plenty happy kicking the crap out of the women in the pool'
No. of Recommendations: 1
I'll look into it. Thanks.
No. of Recommendations: 4
How about women if you're orthodox Jew?
For those who aren't aware, some very orthodox Jews refrain from any physical contact with women outside their families (even incidental contact) in order to comply with prohibitions on touching women while they are Niddah (a period of ritual uncleanliness around menstruation).
Here in the U.S., the burden falls on the orthodox Jew to arrange their own life so that they can observe that stricture. This places some pretty severe limitations on how much very orthodox Jews are able to participate in the economy. They want to isolate against incidental contact with women - but they don't have the legal right to discriminate against women in workplaces. So there are simply a very large number of jobs they cannot take (you're not going to be able to be an urgent care nurse, for example) and firms they cannot work for, because they cannot request (and their employer cannot grant) the types of accommodates that would insulate them from potential physical contact with a woman outside their family. They don't get to force women to bear the consequences of their beliefs.
I still have no idea what LurkerMom would want to say to (or do to?) a trans person that wouldn't be allowed, given LM's claim that they wouldn't go out of their way to be inconsiderate. But if there is something, it would probably fall under an analogous rubric - if you have an internal belief that just requires you to discriminate against another group, it's probably on you to arrange your life to avoid situations where you would have that discriminatory interaction with that other group. You probably don't get to say that they should suffer the negative impacts. But again, I don't really know what LM is really referring to, here.
No. of Recommendations: 2
And your change of subject has to do with what? Or perhaps I am missing something
with your reply?
Yes, you seem to be lacking consistency with the respect and 'live and let live' civil rights thing.
The importance of respecting another persons decisions /lifestyles goes right out the window when it conflicts with your beliefs... even when it does not affect you or your family and your 'family values.'.
DH and I raised our two sons according to our family values.
The one thing I was taught growing up and have always lived by is,
'You go to your Church and I will go to mine, but we will all walk along together'
"I said treat me with respect and I will do the same....
What I may think is of no concern to anyone else.
It is a matter of live and let live. Treat me with respect and I will do the same."
No. of Recommendations: 2
I still have no idea what LurkerMom would want to say to (or do to?) a trans person that wouldn't be allowed, given LM's claim that they wouldn't go out of their way to be inconsiderate. But if there is something, it would probably fall under an analogous rubric - if you have an internal belief that just requires you to discriminate against another group, it's probably on you to arrange your life to avoid situations where you would have that discriminatory interaction with that other group. You probably don't get to say that they should suffer the negative impacts. But again, I don't really know what LM is really referring to, here.
albaby
And I don't have a clue what you are talking about. Drop your analyzing lawyer bit.
Picture this, You and I having a cordial conversation without me having to tiptoe around avoiding or using certain pronouns, phrases or what have you. Me just being me without having to think can I say this or do I avoid saying that and you speaking in terms you normally use, (lawyer jargon ;)) just two friends having a conversation.
So if I were having a conversation with a transperson I would have no problem with s/he
speaking in terms s/he would rather use and I expect the same for me, again, just two friends having a conversation.
We have a large Amish community in my area. I frequent their Nursery and small grocery store. The Amish avoid certain words and use another in its place. I converse as I normally do. No one is offended and neither really don't care.
No. of Recommendations: 2
No one is offended and neither really don't care.
Maybe.
Or maybe the Amish neighbors are just too polite to tell you what they think about 'you just being you without having to think can you say this or do you avoid saying that'.... like you do on an anonymous message board.
No. of Recommendations: 0
The importance of respecting another persons decisions /lifestyles goes right out the window when it conflicts with your beliefs... even when it does not affect you or your family and your 'family values.'.
Methinks you are grasping at straws just to ? who knows what?
What part of 'Live and let live' and 'another person decisions are none of my business.'
No. of Recommendations: 4
You and I having a cordial conversation without me having to tiptoe around avoiding or using certain pronouns, phrases or what have you. Me just being me without having to think can I say this or do I avoid saying that and you speaking in terms you normally use, (lawyer jargon ;)) just two friends having a conversation.
Sure - easy enough to picture.
But surely you would acknowledge that a friendly conversation has boundaries, beyond which it stops being friendly. If you were to start using racial slurs, for example, I would have a serious problem with that. I'm Jewish - if you started using slurs that were derogatory towards Jewish people, I would obviously also have a serious problem with that as well.
Part of having a cordial conversation is staying within the bounds of civility and what you understand about the person you're talking to. Avoiding things that are grossly offensive to the other person.
So if you're talking to a transwoman, but keep on calling them by male pronouns even after being politely reminded that doing so is offensive to them, you're no longer engaging in a friendly conversation. You're being deliberately offensive towards them. That's certainly out of place in any kind of professional context (a workplace or other place of business), and most people would regard that as being out of place in friendly social settings.
The Amish avoid certain words and use another in its place. I converse as I normally do. No one is offended and neither really don't care.
Of course. But there's a huge gap between cultural differences in vocabulary on neutral matters (saying "soda" vs. "pop") and deliberately using terminology that the other person correctly views as denigrating and insulting. I don't imagine that your conversations with the Amish include you deliberately using language that diminishes the sincerity of their faith, or questions the validity of their cultural or religious choices? Right?
No. of Recommendations: 1
Or maybe the Amish neighbors are just too polite to tell you what they think about 'you just being you without having to think can you say this or do you avoid saying that'.... like you do on an anonymous message board.
LOL..your nitpicking arguments are making me laugh. 😂
No. of Recommendations: 1
We have a large Amish community in my area. I frequent their Nursery and small grocery store. The Amish avoid certain words and use another in its place. I converse as I normally do. No one is offended and neither really don't care. - LM
---------------
Exactly!!
No. of Recommendations: 1
Or maybe the Amish neighbors are just too polite to tell you what they think about 'you just being you without having to think can you say this or do you avoid saying that'.... like you do on an anonymous message board.
No - I suspect it's more that LM is describing differences in cultural and linguistic references to pretty neutral items (like using some Dutch or colloquial terms to refer to common objects, while LM does not). And of course, those aren't value-laden differences, so no one is offended.
As I mentioned upthread, I'm sure that LM isn't using language that belittles the sincerity of the Amish faith, or questions the validity of their cultural or religious choices. She's not using terms that the Amish people she's speaking with would regard as derogatory or insulting to their people or culture.
That's why it's an inapt analogy. Trans people, like Amish people, don't care if you use different phrases to refer to ordinary objects ("water fountain" vs. "bubbler"). They do care if you deliberately use language that belittles the sincerity or validity of their identity as a trans person, just as an Amish person would care deeply if you deliberately used language that was derogatory towards the sincerity or validity of their faith and culture.
Albaby
No. of Recommendations: 2
'Transition to get an advantage is not something that factors into our decisions.'
I believe her, too. It's just an unintended consequence. Realistically, it only affects a miniscule percentage of athletes. But it is there, and should be addressed to be fair to all parties.
No. of Recommendations: 0
Here in the U.S., the burden falls on the orthodox Jew to arrange their own life so that they can observe that stricture.
And I would agree they should. The example I was thinking of was a news article about those folks trying to fly. One did exactly what you said and wrapped himself in clear plastic with the face open. They actually had a photo in the article. But another caused a fuss because he would not take his seat (as the flight attendant instructed), and was insisting another person change seats with him so he would not sit next to a female. I don't recall what happened (I think he may have been ejected from the flight for failure to obey instructions) as I read that a year or two ago. But I think he was wrong to expect people would rearrange their seating for him. Regardless of what I think of that stricture, it was on that guy do adapt to the situation. Not everyone else to accommodate him.
I don't know what the law has to say about that, other than what you wrote. And I don't know how airlines are expected to handle it.
Also, as a point of interest, since it revolves around menstruation, could he ask "are you on your period", and if the answer is "no", could he then sit next to the woman? Yeah, that's a question that a woman may not want to answer. But if she did, would he be allowed to sit?
No. of Recommendations: 1
But I think he was wrong to expect people would rearrange their seating for him. Regardless of what I think of that stricture, it was on that guy do adapt to the situation. Not everyone else to accommodate him.
I agree.
Also, as a point of interest, since it revolves around menstruation, could he ask "are you on your period", and if the answer is "no", could he then sit next to the woman?
Probably not. It's not just whether they're menstruating - there are rituals that have to be completed before Niddah is removed, which a non-Jewish woman would not have undertaken. And of course, that's a deeply personal question that many (most?) women would feel uncomfortable answering, and which some women might even be offended by - which is both an unkind thing for the orthodox Jew to do and should make him feel uncertain that the person he's asking would always answer honestly.
One feature of Judaism is that there are many commandments that the Torah not only prohibits Jews from violating, but also prohibits them from coming anywhere close to violating. For example, during the spring festival of Passover, Jews are commanded to refrain from eating or possessing certain grains (wheat, spelt, barley, oats and rye - collectively "chametz"). But the prohibition against eating or possessing chametz is so important that Ashkenazic Jews will also refrain from eating or possessing corn or beans or other legumes (collectively "kitniyot"), in order to avoid even the slightest possibility that food that they believe is kosher for Passover might contain some trace of chametz. Which is why some very observant Jews will engage in behaviors that seem only marginally connected to complying with a specific Torah commandment, because various Talmudic or other interpretations have found that the behaviors are necessary to avoid even the risk of violating the relevant commandment.
No. of Recommendations: 1
But surely you would acknowledge that a friendly conversation has boundaries, beyond which it stops being friendly. If you were to start using racial slurs, for example, I would have a serious problem with that. I'm Jewish - if you started using slurs that were derogatory towards Jewish people, I would obviously also have a serious problem with that as well.
Well of course, that's common sense. What matters is character, how you treat others regardless of Religion, skin color or ancestry. To turn the tables, does it matter to you I
am not Jewish?
Part of having a cordial conversation is staying within the bounds of civility and what you understand about the person you're talking to. Avoiding things that are grossly offensive to the other person.
Again, common sense
So if you're talking to a transwoman, but keep on calling them by male pronouns even after being politely reminded that doing so is offensive to them, you're no longer engaging in a friendly conversation. You're being deliberately offensive towards them. That's certainly out of place in any kind of professional context (a workplace or other place of business), and most people would regard that as being out of place in friendly social settings.
If I am engaged in a conversation with a transwomen or transman, actually, I can't imagine referring to them as he, she. I would be using their first name, or if they prefer Miss name, Mrs name and Mr name, same as a nontran person would prefer.
Of course. But there's a huge gap between cultural differences in vocabulary on neutral matters (saying "soda" vs. "pop") and deliberately using terminology that the other person correctly views as denigrating and insulting. I don't imagine that your conversations with the Amish include you deliberately using language that diminishes the sincerity of their faith, or questions the validity of their cultural or religious choices? Right?
Right, of course, Common courtesy and respect always prevails.
So why the lecture? Perhaps you might have notice I have mentioned a number of times here and at TMF I was born and raised in NYC, Harlem, my neighborhood. NYC, the world's melting pot. You name the religion, skin color and ancestry, they were my schoolmates, churchmates and best of all my playmates and friends.
I have lived through many years of slurs, derogatory remarks at TMF and now starting here by the left (who already outnumber the other side here) because I consider myself a Conservative. I am not a democrat, not a republican. I do not belong to any political party.
So perhaps your lecture should extend to the left leaning here how to converse with others who have a different point of view.
Meanwhile, I will continue on my merry way just as I did at TMF.
No. of Recommendations: 6
So why the lecture?
No one's giving you a lecture. We're having a conversation.
I think what people are referring to, though, is your statement upthread, where you noted that:
Transgenders should not expect me (or anyone else) to fall in line for them with what is uncomfortable for me (us).
What are you describing? What is it that you think transgenders expect you to do that requires you to "fall in line" that would be uncomfortable for you? From your allusions to conversations you've had with other ethnic or cultural groups (like the Amish), it sounds like you're talking about being uncomfortable with certain spoken norms of civility - but is it something else?
Albaby
No. of Recommendations: 1
No one's giving you a lecture. We're having a conversation
It certainly seem like a lecture to me, how one should do this, how one should do that.
I was thinking I should have been sworn in.
'Transgenders should not expect me (or anyone else) to fall in line for them with what is uncomfortable for me (us).'
What are you describing?
I will speak as I normally do in everyday conservation with anyone.
I don't mimic an Amish way of speaking to 'fit in' nor should I have to with a trans person.
I am not uncomfortable speaking with anyone unless I'm being lectured to.😉
No. of Recommendations: 2
I don't mimic an Amish way of speaking to 'fit in' nor should I have to with a trans person.
No one expects you to. If you're having a conversation with a trans person, you don't have to mimic them (nor is there really any way you could mimic "trans-ness," since being trans doesn't have a particular way of speaking). Just don't deliberately misgender or deadname them - which it sounds like you would never do, anyway - and everyone will be fine!
No. of Recommendations: 0
How do we make that work? I want transgender kids to be treated equally, and I want girls sport to thrive. How to achieve both?
Have a third category of athletic competition called "all gender".
No. of Recommendations: 0
From upthread:
Trans girls want to compete in girls' sports equal to all the other girls.
How do we make that work? I want transgender kids to be treated equally, and I want girls sport to thrive. How to achieve both?
I don't know. I have a friend whose partner is transgender and we both think it's unfair to women to have TG competition. I posed the question a while back here with no response.
