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apologies that this is a bit anecdotal, but i happen to have a few MAGA relatives and interact with some in sports. and i no longer believe any amount of civics education can help.
There seems to be a disturbing notion that votes for trump over-ride any current/future court trial, so any particulars are being ignored. the larger implications are scary.

setting aside any complex notions of election and judicial interactions, the points seem to go something like this :

A. whether trump becomes president or not (in another stolen election), 10s of millions of 2024 votes should count for something. and trump has convinced his base it represents disrespect to MAGA if he goes to jail, as all trials are only a political tactic to keep him from winning.
MAGA considers themselves wholly anti-crime, and casting a vote for trump really presents an identity paradox were he a criminal.

B. all lower court cases ruled against trump should be sent to SCOTUS, including state and fraud trials.

C. MAGA really hates to be put on the spot regarding hypothetical crimes where trump should go to jail.
e.g., trump's infamous comment on shooting someone in NYC goes beyond not losing him votes, but implies some unhinged loyalty regarding accountability for the crime itself.
when pushed, MAGA responses are along the lines of 'were there witnesses?', 'trump must have been defending himself'... even a hypothetical crime could not be conceived.
[of course, all hypothetical crimes AND definitive judgement are reserved for the biden family]


it does not seem likely many aspects of the cult (ignorance, resentment) will dissolve with a trump loss.

I despise how if Trump loses, then it was a rigged election. But if Trump wins, then it was a free
and fair election. Many Republicans in downstream elections ( on the very same ballot ) won their races in 2020. So I guess those elections weren't rigged, just the Presidential election. Pretty hard for a rational person to accept that BS.

Trump lost popular vote to Hillary.
Trump lost popular ( and electoral ) vote to Biden.
So there is plenty of evidence out there that the majority of the voting population
is against Trump. But MAGA refuses to believe it. They remind me of little kids acting
like if they really, really believe it, then it must be true.

I have MAGA in my life,too. We don't talk about politics anymore. We have in the past,
and I would speak/voice my opinions, which they did not like. There has been a cooling of
friendship between MAGA that I know, and myself. I am perfectly fine with that, don't really
care about their snowflake tendencies, especially after hearing for years how everybody but MAGA were snowflakes. With MAGA family members, I just do not talk about it, and vice versa. We all know where we stand on it, I sure as hell ain't changing my view on Trump, and i'm sure they feel the same way.

Apologies that this is a bit anecdotal, ... it does not seem likely many aspects of the cult (ignorance, resentment) will dissolve with a trump loss.

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It's not anecdotal when you can take anyone aside at a Trump rally or have a 20-30 percent chance of meeting someone on the street who will confidently state identical points.

It sounds very pop-psychology-ish (<---- there's a word we need) but I truly believe the MAGA "movement" is a form of mass psychosis. It's not unique in history, it's simply an American manifestation of a more general problem stemming from vast disparities in wealth and policies that seem to erect a thirty foot tall wall of razor wire separating the top and the bottom in the form of poor education and distorted, re-distributive tax policies that protect the wealthiest at the expense of those at the bottom who see no viable upward path.

I frequently make reference to "teachable moments" -- points in one's experience where facts and conditions one has been previously able to suppress from processing as part of one's decision-making lead to outcomes which make those facts and conditions IMPOSSIBLE to ignore and IMPOSSIBLE to NOT associate with one's prior ignoring of those inputs. The most important aspect of a teachable moment is that it makes it inescapably clear to the person in that moment that the suffering they are currently experiencing is PRIMARILY due to their OWN prior choices and that making DIFFERENT choices going forward is required for their literal survival.

In the past, I might have used the following scenarios as examples of teachable moments:

* a person choosing to go without auto insurance getting in a wreck and going bankrupt from damages
* a denier of climate change building a house 200 feet from the ocean in Florida and getting wiped out by a hurricane
* a fan of de-regulation learning they have been harmed by an unsafe drug rushed to market
* an anti-vaxxer losing a child to a preventable childhood disease conquered sixty years ago
* an opponent of Welfare and Social Security becoming disabled and having no safety net to support them
* an NRA nut losing a family member in a mass shooting involving an automatic weapon

The problem with my concept is that even THESE situations require at least a tiny kernel of basic reasoning and one of the unique aspects of the MAGA movement is that its adherents seem to have one unifying characteristic - their primary education was grossly deficient. Not only in civics (concepts about the separation of powers as a means of protection against tyranny, how bills become law, basic civil / criminal procedures, federalism and delegation of powers, etc.) but more basic skills in simple mathematics, history and language. Poor math skills prevent them from being scammed by politicians lying about tax abatements for $500 million dollar stadiums owned by billionaires. A poor background in history prevents one from recognizing old schemes that worsen problems being proposed with new terminology to benefit the privileged.

Note that this is not a comment about the background of the LEADERS of the MAGA movement. Many are nominally very well educated at some of the (previously) most prestigious universities in the country. I'm not convinced these leaders BELIEVE in many (any?) of the ideals of MAGAism. However, every MAGA "leader" clearly understands the existence of such a collective provides a large enough base of voters that can be bilked for campaign contributions and leveraged in a corrupt, gerrymandered system to gain and retain POWER which is their only motivation.

The concept of a "teachable moment" seems to make sense in a very limited, one-person-at-a-time sense. But it's a horrible way to learn a lesson when millions need the lesson. That's a lot of pain and economic / emotional trauma to impose on a large population which injects a new negative shock into the larger system. And that type of "mass teachable moment" won't just hurt those needing the lesson. They have family members dependent upon them as well who will suffer right along with them. And the types of behaviors favored by the MAGA cult involving abusive prosecutions of enemies, coddling of foreign dictators, election fraud and financial fraud hurt the entire population and the world.

It's not entirely clear that members of the MAGA movement are actually capable of learning from any such teachable moment. The blending of MAGAism with a particularly militant type of Apocalyptic Christian evangelism adds an additional layer of group-enforced rejection of reason that only delays the point at which a particular person might realize they've hit rock bottom.

Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of the current mass psychosis exhibited by MAGAism is that success in halting the ascendancy of this flawed thinking won't actually eliminate it. If the United States turns back this tide in November 2024, alters the mix in the House and Senate to weed out the obstructionists and manages to get back to the point where compromise and reason allow legitimate problems to be solved in a timely manner, MAGA thinking won't disappear forever. It won't be "disproven" in any sense. Those that believe its tenets won't link a more functional government to the LOSS of MAGA control in government. Their concerns will simply disappear into the fringes where they came from and lurk... Until the country teeters back after failing to address fundamental problems with education, economic opportunity and justice. But no viable ideas for solving those problems are coming from the MAGA fringe. And they never will.


WTH

Jedi, teaching Civics in school is such 50's Beaver Cleaver racist stuff.


:)

The only good civics I see is the Pro Palestinian protests in your country these days.

They've started out fine - my hope is they sustain and are consistent.


PS: You people have NO common culture, common civics, or even basic recognition of one another - and I'm so glad!

Civics, now?
How many of these guys swore that Putin rigged the 2016 election for Trump?

It’s like they need a mutual uplift society.

WTH: ...I truly believe the MAGA "movement" is a form of mass psychosis. It's not unique in history, it's simply an American manifestation of a more general problem stemming from vast disparities in wealth and policies that seem to erect a thirty foot tall wall of razor wire separating the top and the bottom in the form of poor education and distorted, re-distributive tax policies that protect the wealthiest at the expense of those at the bottom who see no viable upward path.

Well said and much truth there. But what is to be done?

As long as the MAGA types are siloed within the cynical, money-grubbing right wing mediasphere, it's hard to see a solution.

PUTIN RIGGED ELECTION....yes.

But remember....

They can quote Al gore's speech all they want (which was made AFTER SCOTUS)....

But so many Leftists on TMF were doing 'President Select"...."Not my President"

Then in 2004 they were doing "DIEBOLD MACHINES! BUSH STOLE OHIO!"

So not only did they write the book on political violence, but they wrote it multiple times on not accepting election outcomes and THEY are the ones who wanted no common culture and wanted condoms on cucumbers more than civics lessons.

And I am so glad they are seeing - that slowly they are becoming balkanized.

Fun part is they think they are different.

When the democracy does fall - their 401K butts will hardly be in charge.

I hope they lose their Bill of Rights, and I am overjoyed to see recent events.

And in the meantime - I'm content to enjoy the nice fossil fuel drilling and low corporate taxes during Reagan's 3rd term too.

Keep ostracizing them and writing off their collective opinions or fears.

Then wait.

Wait till the AI starts taking some of their jobs.


Then - the real fun begins.


Giggle

But so many Leftists on TMF were doing 'President Select"...."Not my President"

LOL. I’d about forgotten about that.
Then there’s the fact the]at the democrats have been objecting to the Electoral College certifying the election for years. Only now, it’s a crime against the country. Or something.

I’ve come to realize that the majority of what these guys say is just a way to put on makeup and act out some dinner theater, right from behind their keyboards.

The MAGA vibe is certainly not unique for any reader of Bill Berstein's excellent 'The madness of crowds'.
initially spurred by investor bubbles, he notes that most of these mass delusions have some religious bent (if not core), and have not slowed globally despite the exponential growth in STEM for ~2 centuries.
[best review blurb: "God, greed, and the yen for conformity reliably override reason"]

by anecdotal, i mean i was unable to find a poll for GOP voters that captured the essence of their complete intent. something along the lines of
'should millions of votes for trump result in some further accomplishment; such as keeping him out of jail, financially solvent, winner of a nobel prize, etc...'

(happy to accept any better, nonleading designed question)

e.g., trump's infamous comment on shooting someone in NYC goes beyond not losing him votes, but implies some unhinged loyalty regarding accountability for the crime itself.- weatherman

--------------

When Trump said that, he was expressing (with poorly chosen words granted) that he was so popular with the American people that he could do X and get by with it.

Where X = the most horrendous thing possible that came to his mind at the time.

In this context, X was selected because of its revulsion, not that he had any desire or inclination to ever do so.

This spin is getting old. The latest seizes on his use of the word, "bloodbath". fun times.

So there is plenty of evidence out there that the majority of the voting population
is against Trump. - UpNorth

---------------

One small but important quibble,

So there is plenty of evidence out there that the majority of the voting population
used to be against Trump.

Thanks...

Civics, now?
How many of these guys swore that Putin rigged the 2016 election for Trump?

Easy, Dope, none of them swore Putin rigged the election. At best they claimed Putin tried to rig it. My view was that Putin did make some attempts, which had no effect - minor. My fav was when they organized demonstrations in Texas at different ends of the street.

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