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. . . is this what everybody wants this board to be? Partisan political talking points, on every topic, interminably, with both sides determined to get the last word? The same back-and-forth one finds on the most destructive social media sites?

I'm asking because I don't know what the old atheist board was like. I thought there were other boards on the old TMF platform dedicated to partisan politics. I was looking forward to monitoring this one because atheists share a distinctive view of the universe. There is no sign of that in the endless partisan back-and-forth that seems to have taken over the board in its early days. Whatever the culture of the old board, we have a chance to create a productive one here if it's not derailed at the jump.

For example, the immigration topic held a lot of interest for me. It's an increasingly important issue, and not just in the U.S. Mass migration is accelerating globally. War, poverty, crime, persecution, climate-related natural disasters all play a part. Religious fundamentalism and persecution play a bigger role in some places. In Central America, a drug trade supported by U.S. consumption is a major cause of crime and failing/failed states in the Northern Triangle. Does our consumption culture have any responsibility for its victims? The dynamics of climate change suggest this issue will get bigger. How should we think about it, aside from interminably blaming the other political tribe?

Unfortunately (from my point of view), the discussion here was quickly dominated by partisan tribal keyboard warriors and settled into a familiar, unproductive spitball contest, with no one changing anyone's mind. And, again, with no apparent connection to the board's name, unless we're trying to prove that atheists are just as bound up in partisan echo chambers as everyone else.

So I'm wondering: Among the folks who enjoy the partisan tit-for-tat, would you be willing to move your eternal debate to a new partisan politics board (if Manlobbi agreed to create one) and leave this one to build a less partisan atmosphere?

If I'm alone on this, feel free to say so and I'll hang out elsewhere. I just think this board could be of interest to more than a handful of posters if it were not buried in this blizzard of partisan political talking points.

If I'm alone on this, feel free to say so and I'll hang out elsewhere. I just think this board could be of interest to more than a handful of posters if it were not buried in this blizzard of partisan political talking points.

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Or you could hang out here and just hit next when you see a post that doesn't meet with your approval.

'For example, the immigration topic held a lot of interest for me. It's an increasingly important issue, and not just in the U.S. Mass migration is accelerating globally. War, poverty, crime, persecution, climate-related natural disasters all play a part. Religious fundamentalism and persecution play a bigger role in some places. In Central America, a drug trade supported by U.S. consumption is a major cause of crime and failing/failed states in the Northern Triangle. Does our consumption culture have any responsibility for its victims? The dynamics of climate change suggest this issue will get bigger. How should we think about it, aside from interminably blaming the other political tribe?'


Why don't you stick around, post topics and current events that interest you. I'm sure other posters will pick up on it and join in the conversation with their pov or add to the topic.

<<So I'm wondering: Among the folks who enjoy the partisan tit-for-tat, would you be willing to move your eternal debate to a new partisan politics board (if Manlobbi agreed to create one) and leave this one to build a less partisan atmosphere?>>

Excellent idea, please let me know everyone/anyone a food name for such a political board. Maybe it shouldn't have a title that limits it to newspaper politics, but instead can encourage meaningful enquiries? So maybe not 'Partisan Politics'?

Perhaps imagining a square where people voice complaints directly to their King (or other power structure), with a title that inspires creating one's own narrative rather than focussing on the narratives advertised to us for our attention.

In China they actually do this routinely - villages are visited regularly/systematically by law where people sit in the open to voice concerns directly - in public - to the party, and this format has the function that if you lie (such as 'I didn't receive X or Y last month') then because it is public you are scorned, so people tend to voice genuine complaints only. This happens at a micro level across all villages with lower level party members recording the data and then it is fed up and actually addressed, usually with tests on smaller regions before expanding further when successful. Dare I say, at least this component, a lot more democratic* than a system where people press a vote button once every four years that is largely in response to the marketing budget size (careful studies by Thomas Ferguson showed that when correlating all variables - charisma, policy, consistency etc - with election success, it was shown definitively that there is just a single variable that accounts for almost all success - that of campaign funding. So the policy is barely relevant and this has lately become openly accepted as policy is increasingly not even discussed, and if it was, then the acted policy has little relation to the promised policy usually furthermore. It is a predictable consequence that, because large business, rather than the public, solely decides upon policy, then neoliberalism and non-interference will also be drummed into us incessantly to almost become a religion replacement, along with consumerism etc. These principles apply across most of Europe, the Commonwealth countries (former British colonies) and USA.).

- Manlobbi

* We are trained to view democracy as the popular voting method. But this is a 'method' to facilitate democracy, rather than anything more than a highly abstract relation to democracy. Democracy itself, rather, relates to the public having influence over how they are governed, and there are an infinite means of doing that other than the button pressing method, which has been shown to be largely correlated only to marketing budget (which is a text-book definition of bribery - money paid for individual gain, and having public consequence, but without the bribe rating to public consequence) size, and not policy itself anyway.

...a [g]ood name for such a political board"

How about Take It Outside?

--sutton
(and, if evolves into just two members ranting at each other, yet another board: Get A Room)

Excellent idea, please let me know everyone/anyone a food name for such a political board. Maybe it shouldn't have a title that limits it to newspaper politics, but instead can encourage meaningful enquiries? So maybe not 'Partisan Politics'?

Yes, by all means, let's get the political bickering OFF the Atheist board. Religious bickering can stay, I suppose, but not ENDLESS political bickering/bashing that seems to have become the norm here, along with refugees from the defunct "Political Asylum" board on the old TMF. The name "Partisan Politics" is a fine name I think.

. . . is this what everybody wants this board to be? Partisan political talking points, on every topic, interminably, with both sides determined to get the last word? The same back-and-forth one finds on the most destructive social media sites?

As for me....absolutely not. I don't deal with social media. On TMF, I stayed away from such boards without exception. I left another attempt at creating a site for ex-TMFers because that's what it quickly devolved to. And I apologize for my contribution to the unresolvable frictions here.

I appreciate your intervention.

As I said earlier,

'Why don't you stick around, post topics and current events that interest you. I'm sure other posters will pick up on it and join in the conversation with their pov or add to the topic.'

Same for everyone else.

I have not seen other topics of interest presented to this Board.

So where are you? Post.

please let me know everyone/anyone a [g]ood name for such a political board.

Perhaps revive the old TMF Political Asylum moniker? I seem to recall some laments when it went away.

Also like sutton's Take It Outside. Original and funny. Of course, those who use it might not think so. Not a lot of humor in political discourse these days.

As for me....absolutely not. I don't deal with social media. On TMF, I stayed away from such boards without exception. I left another attempt at creating a site for ex-TMFers because that's what it quickly devolved to. And I apologize for my contribution to the unresolvable frictions here.

_____________________

Posters who were regulars at the old PA were content to kibitz back and forth. The complaints often were from those who dropped in for a second or two to voice their disdain.
Live and let live.
eom

Perhaps revive the old TMF Political Asylum moniker? I seem to recall some laments when it went away.

No! Please not "Political Asylum". That name only encouraged people to act crazy and go nuts. There was far too much of that on PA on TMF. Manlobbi's first suggestion was fine.

Posters who were regulars at the old PA were content to kibitz back and forth. The complaints often were from those who dropped in for a second or two to voice their disdain.
Live and let live.

Your opinion

those who use it might not think so. Not a lot of humor in political discourse these days.

Actually, that was to some degree my point.

Manlobbi put in considerable time and effort in a wonderfully altruistic attempt to restore to the community what was lost -- asking only in return that we play nice. Civilly. Or - what in a quaint, pre-internet time - were called good manners.

Assume for the moment that instead he had used that time and effort to put in a bar, light fixtures, tables, chairs, and had then invited us all to partake, nicely.

If we came into his lounge for the good, quiet, rational conversation he made clear from the outset were his goals...and then some parties dialed it up too loudly, aggressively, rudely...then Take It Outside! would be the response the rest of us would appreciate.

Plenty of other places for post-internet manners. Like, just about everywhere else.

--sutton

Your opinion

___________________

Yes, my opinion.

The board posters here have been very civil to one another except one slight instance and a
'huff and puff, I'm leaving.'

I don't understand if someone does not like the postings on a Board why don't they just go away, post on the Boards that suit them and let others be.

While traffic is light, it is pretty clear that the atheist-to-troll ratio moved in an unfavorable direction.

<<I don't understand if someone does not like the postings on a Board why don't they just go away, post on the Boards that suit them and let others be.>>

Such an individualistic approach has merit in that we want to preserve profound freedom of speech, but that doesn't mean we want to offend people.

Conversely you can have a repressive intellectual foundation (thus very limited freedom of thought) but freedom to abuse people, and that has no relation to the concept of freedom of speech; in fact it is the diametric opposite.

I summed this up here:
https://www.shrewdm.com/MB?pid=378725730

Posting something repeatedly that causes someone to leave should be considered as a spectacular blunder on the part of oneself.

Note: People will almost never leave (permanently or semi-permanently) from their *ideas* rationally and intelligently attacked (with reasoning and evidence and effort, not rapid prove-response lazy rebuffs). They'll actually be even more attracted to the conversation even if some anxiety is provoked. So what makes them leave? They leave if they consider the discourse rude, uncultured or insensitive, irrational, aggressive, or repetitive. None of that relates to freedom of speech and it isn't part of the Shrewd'm way.

On that subject, for those ever on the verge of leaving, don't forget the ignore button also. Please don't consider it weak minded whatsoever if you use it; everyone has emotions and keeping away from impoliteness and pollution is part of one's self respect, plus if any narcissism is involved it is 100% the only way to have success.

- Manlobbi

LurkerMom wrote:
As I said earlier, 'Why don't you stick around, post topics and current events that interest you. I'm sure other posters will pick up on it and join in the conversation with their pov or add to the topic.'

I think that LurkerMom's advice is 100% correct here. When anyone feels board posts are not on topic *and* the post volume is otherwise low, the best remedy is to write new posts (starting new threads) that are on topic. This can set off a "positive avalanche".

One can imagine readers may passively wait for the topic to change, but rather than waiting, as LurkerMum suggests, post something on topic and you may be surprised about the positive reaction.

Respectfully!

- Manlobbi

Manlobbi, earlier in this thread you wrote that you thought a board devoted to politics was a good idea and you were seeking a name for it. Is that still in the works?

We know from other social media sites that partisan political posts provoke a volume of replies greater than almost any other subject. The sheer number tends to drown out other topics, the way untended weeds can choke a garden. A board devoted to atheists will not approach that kind of volume if posts remain within several country miles of the topic identified in the board's name. If, as the site operator, you are interested in retaining the high volume we saw here when the conversation veered into partisan politics, providing those posters with a board where partisan political disputes are on-topic would seem like the solution.

As I'm sure you know, volume of posts is the leading identifier of internet trolls. A board devoted to atheists, particularly on a nascent site like this one, is going to be quiet sometimes. And that's . . . okay, as Stuart Smalley used to say.

Manlobbi, earlier in this thread you wrote that you thought a board devoted to politics was a good idea and you were seeking a name for it. Is that still in the works?

I wouldn't suggest banning politics here, but for creating a separate political board there could be 2 distinct, and almost mutually exclusive, functions:

Either (1) provide a home for emotional political posts, which follow closely the media narrative trends - the goal being to keep other boards more focussed as the unwanted traffic could gravitate elsewhere (acting somewhat as a swimming pool cleaner left on all day and night); or (2) provide a (reasonably) intelligent political board that inquires about serious subjects that are almost invariably absent from every single newspaper and television programme.

The title of such a board depends whether the direction should be 1 or 2. Or, I suppose, there could be two political boards with completely different names, aimed at these polar opposites to provide both functions.

- Manlobbi

". . . is this what everybody wants this board to be? Partisan political talking points, on every topic, interminably, with both sides determined to get the last word? The same back-and-forth one finds on the most destructive social media sites?

I'm asking because I don't know what the old atheist board was like. I thought there were other boards on the old TMF platform dedicated to partisan politics. I was looking forward to monitoring this one because atheists share a distinctive view of the universe. There is no sign of that in the endless partisan back-and-forth that seems to have taken over the board in its early days. Whatever the culture of the old board, we have a chance to create a productive one here if it's not derailed at the jump."

The atheist board at the old TMF site could be very political at times. Very, very political.

However, it never really was a problem because the board was generally populated with very rational, data driven, analytical people. Remember, it is the atheist board so it is populated with people who are generally educated, open minded, and independent thinkers. Tribalism and ideology are generally the realm of religion, not atheism. As a result, most posters wouldn't mindlessly bleat the latest spin given to them from the usual propaganda sites cloaked as "news" (though there were a few). This meant that the political conversations were generally some of the highest quality political conversations found anywhere. I am willing to bet that almost all of the more prolific posters had their political views changed at least slightly from conversations they had on that board. Again, that might be a result of the type of person who generally populated that board (educated, open minded, independent thinkers looking to learn something new) as opposed to tribalists just looking to score points for their tribe.

That said, there were many posts there that were nothing more than copy and pasted political talking points, but not enough to drown out the quality. It is like that anywhere. On a Berkshire board you get posters whose sole contribution is to do a drive by "Buffett doesn't understand tech." or such and never choose to understand the nuances behind that or such. They are there to score points, not learn or interact with other posters. The presence of mindless drive by political propaganda doesn't have to drive out the quality conversations. The key is to have a lot of posters who are open minded and looking to learn from interacting with others. Posters who are looking to have their views challenged. Posters who are looking to understand views different than their own. There were quite a few on the TMF atheist board, so the conversation quality was generally high. I don't know how many of those posters have made it over to here so I do not know if the political conversations will be the same. I am hopeful that since this is an atheist board, it will attract the same type of people, but that is yet to be determined.

My suggestion would be to let the political conversations happen for now. If there are enough open minded, independent thinkers looking to learn then the political conversation will not be bad and it will be fine. If there are not enough such posters, it won't matter.

A board devoted to atheists will not approach that kind of volume if posts remain within several country miles of the topic identified in the board's name.



Politics is hugely relevant to the growing % of secular people in the US. The GQP is heavily influenced by the God n' Guns club. A substantial % of "conservatives" hold atheists in low regard as atheists tend to support gun control , pro-choice rights, equal rights, separation of church/state, etc.

Hypocrisy abounds in the headline stories.
For example, today's story, "Catholic lobbyists urge Jim Jordan to probe DOJ's handling of attacks on churches, pro-life centers." reeks of relevance to a board who's denizens are acutely aware of the RCC's and Jordans reluctance to deal with the sexual abusers with whom they are affiliated at work.

as atheists tend to support gun control , pro-choice rights, equal rights, separation of church/state, etc. - sano

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In other words, atheists tend to skew left or liberal. Nothing wrong with that But it explains why some say politics has no place on the atheists board when what they really mean is that expressing conservative views has no place.

Live and let live I say. Don't like what someone posts, hit next and move on instead of banishing them to a gulag with others of their ilk.

In other words, atheists tend to skew left or liberal. Nothing wrong with that But it explains why some say politics has no place on the atheists board when what they really mean is that expressing conservative views has no place.

No. That doesn't explain it. Other posters have already expressed it clearly. Views that are thoughtfully developed and supported.....from whatever perspective.....are welcomed. Sharing our differences in this way enables us to have thought-provoking discussions and learn more about ourselves as well as each other. It's those.....on whichever side of the center.....who angrily flaunt the glib, fact-contradicting pronouncements handed to them by the highly biased commentators and websites they rely on, who have no interest in discussion, and don't belong on a board that does.

=sheila

In other words, atheists tend to skew left or liberal. Nothing wrong with that But it explains why some say politics has no place on the atheists board when what they really mean is that expressing conservative views has no place.

Live and let live I say. Don't like what someone posts, hit next and move on instead of banishing them to a gulag with others of their ilk.

____________________

Exactly!!!!! I said the same, Live and Let Live.

My observation is the new Board is already starting to become the old Fool Boards.

The old Atheist board had lots of political discussions. The posters there mainly leaned
to the left and some to the far left. I occasionally read the Atheist Board but I never posted there. I knew enough to stay away knowing I would not be welcome with my conservative values. Live and let live.

The Atheist Shrewd Board was doing just fine, civility prevail. Then, in the same fashion of the Old Fool Boards, a poster, who never posted on this Board comes over and drops his disdaining opinion of this Board, then followed by others.
Ya, live and let live....gone.

fact-contradicting pronouncements handed to them by the highly biased commentators and websites they rely on, who have no interest in discussion, and don't belong on a board that does.

=sheila

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95% of whom are conservative. Co-incidence?

fact-contradicting pronouncements handed to them by the highly biased commentators and websites they rely on, who have no interest in discussion, and don't belong on a board that does.

=sheila

___________________

Yep, shades of the Fool PA board putdowns....incivility

The Fool's Atheist Board was dominated by the left. They were free to discussed their various political topics with little or none 'outside' interference.

There also were two Boards which were dominated by conservatives. Their proper board names escape me.
One, the Conservative Board, the other Campfire ? ?.

Perhaps separate Boards could be establish where like minded posters post their political diatribes, each political side having their own space.

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