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Here's something I heard today:

America is in an emergency. America is under existential attack from evil people who must be destroyed by any means necessary.

There is an enemy within and we are in such dire straits that we need to get rid of our system of government, get rid of all of this process, get rid of all these people having a say, get rid of all these safeguards and checks and balances, and instead just have somebody who is going to slay the demon; someone who is going to vanquish our enemies once and for all.

I would really like to know if this is something close to what those leaning to the right would claim as their position. Is this a fair summary of how people on the right feel or believe? If not, is it close or completely off the mark?

I'm curious because it was said by someone on the left claiming to have some idea of how those on the right are thinking. So I don't want to take it at face value without confirming it with some folks on the right. If they're completely wrong, I'll dismiss it. But if it is correct - or pretty close - I can use this to help adjust my thinking.

--Peter

I would really like to know if this is something close to what those leaning to the right would claim as their position. Is this a fair summary of how people on the right feel or believe? If not, is it close or completely off the mark?

LOL, no. Not even close.
But this is what lefties believe right wingers think, and that notion is what fuels the hatred we get online and in real life.

Don't believe the real life part? Go to a liberal city and walk around wearing a MAGA hat, or better yet, plant some Trump signs in people's yards and watch what happens.

LOL, no. Not even close.

OK. That's why I'm asking.

So how would you correct it? Or just start over from scratch. What is driving your support for Trump and the MAGA movement?

--Peter

LOL, no. Not even close.

On the other hand, I just saw a clip of Jesse Watters on Fox saying, "We're gonna vanquish the evil forces that are destroying this Republic."
https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/reacting-tru...

So while my description might not ring true for you, it sure seems like its close for some others.

--Peter

So how would you correct it?

Just about none of it is correct. Let's parse it.

America is in an emergency. America is under existential attack from evil people who must be destroyed by any means necessary.

America has problems, yes, but these are fixable, and in some cases very easily. The democrat party has moved further and further left and in so doing has enacted a number of really, really awful policies that are holding the country back at the city, county, state and federal levels. The further left a democrat elected official gets, the worse the policy outcomes. But that doesn't imply "evil" and the "destroyed by any means necessary" phrasing implies lining them all up and shooting them.

We don't do that here, so no.

Then it gets more ridiculous:

There is an enemy within and we are in such dire straits that we need to get rid of our system of government, get rid of all of this process, get rid of all these people having a say, get rid of all these safeguards and checks and balances, and instead just have somebody who is going to slay the demon; someone who is going to vanquish our enemies once and for all.

There IS an entrenched bureaucrat class that thinks It Knows Better and it abuses the power that it has. You see this manifest itself in the rulemaking that goes on, be it the EPA abusing the Waters Of The United States statutes or the ATF imposing mandates absent legislation to intelligence officials abusing their status to declare this or that disinformation to a public health officials who refused to level with the public during COVID...with deadly consequences.

All that is fixable via the ballot box. The Constitution is the single best governing document on the planet and its concepts are what are needed here, not a revolution as described. The piece you quoted explicitly rejects that, and as such isn't something that I nor anyone I know would ever support. Quite the opposite.

As I said: this is what some lefty thinks right wingers want: Elect Trump, dissolve the government, and have The Big Orange Generalissimo rule the United States forever. Uhhh, no. That's ridiculous; I know of literally no one who thinks that way. I happen to be of the opinion that statements like these are actually intended to rile up Trump's political opponents so as to back them into an emotional place where they can mentally justify that Anything Goes when it comes to stopping him this election cycle.

Last time we saw little old ladies being assaulted by mask wearing goons when leaving rallies. With verbiage like what you shared, what does that escalate into this time? Is that good for the country, especially when a victim retaliates in kind?

What is driving your support for Trump and the MAGA movement?

I don't know how you're defining "the MAGA movement" so I won't address that. I will tell you this to answer the Trump part:

1. We have essentially two choices in this election - the third party fringe candidates don't matter - so it's either Biden or Trump. I didn't want Trump to run and was very vocal about my support for Ron DeSantis as President...but Ron D came in 2nd in the primary. This is what we have to choose from.

2. Biden was a mediocre man before age caught up with him and as President, he's been an abject disaster. Literally every marker one could name is measurably worse off: the economy. The border. Foreign policy. Name it. He's sucked at it.

3. Trump has a lot of faults. But his record as President...was actually pretty good. The world wasn't on fire and in fact we had the Abraham Accords gaining momentum. People weren't flooding the border. Our foreign policy wasn't the poopshow it is now. On more subtle fronts, we were making preparations to counter China (who Trump loudly - and accurately - called out as a threat).

Ask yourself this. For all the apocalyptical rhetoric put out by the Hillary! campaign - Trump was a racist, he was gonna take vengeance on his political opponents and take away all our freedoms -

Did any of that happen? Answer: Nope.

Therefore, going forward, for about a hundred reasons, a Trump 2nd term will be better than a Biden second term.

That's why he has my vote. There's no "cult". It's an objective measurement of the two men as President.

So while my description might not ring true for you, it sure seems like its close for some others.

Does "vanquish" mean black vans kidnapping liberals in the middle of the night, never to be seen again?

Does that mean they're going to install Trump as President For Life?

If you think it does, then we're kinda done here because there isn't anything I can say to change your mind.

And here's an example of the kind of nonsense being spewed from the left side:

https://view.newsletters.cnn.com/messages/17180689...

We spoke with Maddow via email about the new season of "Ultra," the 2024 campaign, and whether she fears she might be a target of Donald Trump's wrath should be win a second term. Her answers are presented below, unedited.

And here we go, right into narcissistic paranoia:

DARCY: Trump and his allies are openly talking about weaponizing the government to seek revenge against critics in media and politics, with some of his extremist allies even talking about jailing their fellow Americans. You're one of his most notable critics on television. Are you worried that you could be a target?

MADDOW: I'm worried about the country broadly if we put someone in power who is openly avowing that he plans to build camps to hold millions of people, and to "root out" what he’s described in subhuman terms as his "enemy from within." Again, history is helpful here. He’s not joking when he says this stuff, and we’ve seen what happens when people take power proclaiming that kind of agenda.

I think there’s a little bit of head-in-the-sand complacency that Trump only intends to go after individual people he has already singled out. Do you really think he plans to stop at well-known liberals?

It also seems pretty clear that some people in politics might think they’ll be on the safe side -- that they might even benefit from it — if they side with Trump. Ask Mike Pence about how that works out in the end.

When Trump invokes the Insurrection Act to deploy the U.S. military against civilians on his first day in office, do you think he then rescinds the order on day two?

Sure, Jan.
I mean...this is lead-paint chips eating levels of stupid from Maddow.

ptheland: "I just saw a clip of Jesse Watters on Fox saying, We're gonna vanquish the evil forces that are destroying this Republic."

Well, Dope did recently say...

"Dare we dream of a worldwide rejection of the toxic liberalism we’ve had to put up with for the last 20 years??" ~Dope

https://www.shrewdm.com/MB?pid=931690941

Bansky: "Well, Dope did recently say...

"Dare we dream of a worldwide rejection of the toxic liberalism we’ve had to put up with for the last 20 years??" ~Dope"

----------------

Seems like a very reasonable position for a conservative.

What is it about Dope's post that you find sinister?

Seems like a very reasonable position for a conservative.

What is it about Dope's post that you find sinister?


The kind of liberalism that says
*Throw open the borders, come on in for free stuff
*Jails little old ladies for 2 years for praying on the sidewalk
*Punishes crime victims and lets the criminals walk
*Says, “Let’s abolish the police”, but makes it impossible for citizens to protect themselves
*Thinks that inflation is from corporate greed

…and willfully misinterprets anything said that goes counter to their narrative IS toxic. 100%.

And it deserves to be roundly rejected at the ballot box in the USA, just as we’re seeing it happen in Europe.

The democrat party has moved further and further left ……

Actually, the far left has lost power and the base of the Democratic Party has moved to the center. It only looks like they’ve moved further left to you because you’ve moved so far to the extreme right.

As I said: this is what some lefty thinks right wingers want: Elect Trump, dissolve the government, and have The Big Orange Generalissimo rule the United States forever.

Uh, no.

“We love this guy,” Trump said of Hannity. “He says, ‘You’re not going to be a dictator, are you?’ I said: ‘No, no, no, other than day one. We’re closing the border, and we’re drilling, drilling, drilling. After that, I’m not a dictator.’”

Sure, he only wants to be dictator for one day. Only a fool would believe that. Why would we let anyone who wanted to be a dictator, even for an hour, near power? How un-American.

America lost 2.9 million jobs under Trump’s watch (the ONLY president to lose jobs in the modern era) and unemployment rose to 6.3%. Covid deaths were worse in red states because blue states followed science and red states followed Trump’s stupid and irrational advice. We had food lines for the first time since the Great Recession. His presidency was corrupt and many of his advisors did jail time. He divided the country with his hate filled rants. No other country trusted their secrets with us because Trump was so easy to manipulate. Foreign policy was for sale to the highest bidder. And nazis were “some very fine people ….” It was impossible to keep up with his pathological lying and autocratic tendencies.

The Republicans are so pathetic, the best person they could come up with was a charity stealing, adjudicated rapist, ignorant bully, insurrectionist, dictator-loving, 34-count felon. That’s the best you could come up with.

America isn’t falling apart, the Republicans are.

By the way, you know who talks about using the military on American citizens?

It's not Trump. It's Biden. Guy fantasizes about presumably cluster-bombing MAGA people with F-15s. Guy talks about it all the time:

https://x.com/jtLOL/status/1800624707970224466?ref...

Biden on second amendment advocates: "If they want to think they can take on the government if we get out of line, they need F-15s, they don't need a rifle."

(There are more examples)

Actually, the far left has lost power and the base of the Democratic Party has moved to the center.

Absolutely. I was a registered Republican right after I graduated high school. And for 20 years after that. Obviously, as I evolved, my views evolved. But I was always a bit of a centrist. The Party moved away from me far more than I moved away from it. By today's standards, Reagan would probably have to register as a Democrat (except perhaps for his courting the evangelicals). He opposed Russia at every opportunity (unlike the modern Republican Party), he believed in the social safety net, etc.** Trumpism is diametrically opposed to almost everything Reagan believed. Which, interestingly, is also the case of the alleged Jesus and modern evangelicals (i.e. they don't practice what he allegedly preached).




**I didn't realize at the time his "dog whistle" racism, though I've come to understand it later in life.

Actually, the far left has lost power and the base of the Democratic Party has moved to the center.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
That's a good one.
I see you people have given up on the main premise of the thread and are just doing what you normally do - gaslight, outright lie, make it about Trump and anyone who might vote for him...and basically confirm the reverse of the OP's point.

You do you, baby!

The 'democrats have moved to the center' bit only works if you're somehow to the left of Mao. That takes some doing, congrats.

(unlike the modern Republican Party)

Yeah, no.
The modern Republican party recognizes that Putin can't project power even 10 miles off his border and has recalibrated to the real global threat, China.

That's not to say that Putin isn't still capable of casing mischief. Just look at how many troublemakers he has on the left willing to spread his disinformation.

Dope:Actually, the far left has lost power and the base of the Democratic Party has moved to the center.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
That's a good one.

No. He has a very good point.

Pew tells us that since the 1970s, Dems in the House and Senate have moved .07 and .06 to the left, respectively, while Republicans have moved .25 and .28 to the right. A much larger move to the right - which has been chronicled for some time now. (see the first chart)

And this:

1. Both parties have grown more ideologically cohesive. There are now only about two dozen moderate Democrats and Republicans left on Capitol Hill, versus more than 160 in 1971-72.

2. Both parties have moved further away from the ideological center since the early 1970s. Democrats on average have become somewhat more liberal, while Republicans on average have become much more conservative.

3. The geographic and demographic makeup of both congressional parties has changed dramatically. Nearly half of House Republicans now come from Southern states, while nearly half of House Democrats are Black, Hispanic or Asian/Pacific Islander.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/03/10...

Now read the entire article which includes this excerpt:

Between the 92nd Congress of 1971-72 and the current 117th Congress, both parties in both the House and the Senate have shifted further away from the center, but Republicans more so. House Democrats, for example, moved from about -0.31 to -0.38, meaning that over time they’ve become modestly more liberal on average. House Republicans, by contrast, moved from 0.25 to nearly 0.51, a much bigger increase in the conservative direction.

Fake laughter and accusations do not hold up will against serious studies by reputable sources.

I wrote about this back in January...

https://watchingtheherd.blogspot.com/2024/01/a-blo...

For a animated visual of what seems to be going on idealogically in both parties and how it affects what emerges from the political process, you can look at this clip accompanying the above post:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyhGmtBOd0c


WTH

And remember what a right wing activist, christo-fascist, Alito is...

Last week, at another Supreme Court Historical Society dinner, Windsor spoke with Alito again and said negotiation with “the left” may be pointless. The conservative justice seemed to concur, but then qualified his answer.

“I think you’re probably right: One side or the other is going to win. I mean there can be a way of working, a way of living together peacefully, right? It’s difficult because there are differences on fundamental things that can’t be compromised.”

When Windsor told Alito that she believed that people need to fight “to return our country to a place of godliness,” the justice replied: “I agree with you. I agree with you.”

I like how the fanatic block goes waaaay over to the right by itself. Wonder where Dope fits in? :)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

If you think that makes your point then you really are a dope.

Me, quoting an as yet unnamed source:America is in an emergency. (Hint - it's Rachael Maddow.)

Mike Johnson, just today: People recognize that this will be the most consequential election of our lifetimes, and maybe of the last century or more.

Dope: America has problems, yes, but these are fixable, and in some cases very easily.

Clearly, Dope is not representative of the bulk of the GOP. So I'm going to dismiss his response and carry on. And since there were no other responses, I'm going to take my OP as roughly correct.

First up, you can watch Rachael Maddow's comments that I quoted here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbf7oH3of5M
The part I quoted starts at about the 6 minute mark, but I'd recommend the whole conversation.

What Rachael is describing sounds very much like a Christian talking about their faith. Our souls are under attack from evil. We need to destroy (really, understand and contain) that evil. The evil is within each of us and we can't get rid of it. We need someone to come in and slay that evil once and for all. That someone, that savior, is God, so to be saved we have to put all of our trust in this savior. I believe this is a significant reason that the current GOP appeals so much to the evangelical portion of Christianity. The story is the same. We need a savior for our soul and we need a savior for the country.

This view of the far right is not something that can be countered with truth or facts. Trump has literally become their savior and no one else can cure the evils that they see invading the US. Cult is an apt description of this situation.

My concern - and one that I think is shared by many - is that this GOP cult is willing to disassemble our democracy and the entire republic, if needed, to cure the evils they are seeing. They are willing to give up most of their rights (except guns, of course) to allow this savior to save the country. They don't care that the loss of women's bodily autonomy will lead to the loss of their own bodily autonomy. They don't care that the loss of some peoples' right to vote will lead to the loss of their right to vote. They don't care that what they are proposing is exactly the same (under the guise of a different religion) as what the Taliban are doing or what Hamas is doing, or - perish the thought - what Israel is doing: Turning religion into government.

Since this view isn't going to be countered with facts, the endless correction and fact checking is not going to convince most cult members to change their mind.

So what to do?

Strangely, I completely agree with Mike Johnson. This coming election may be the most important election in our lifetimes, if not the history of the USA.

The fact checking is still useful for the portion of the country (somewhere between 1/5 and 1/3 by my reckoning) who is still on the fence. They need to hear that the lies are lies. They need to hear what the GOP is willing to do to our democracy just to win an election. They need to know that what has made the USA great is not just winning elections, but losing elections gracefully, then doing better next time.

On a more practical level, I'd avoid protracted conversations that boil down to arguing truth vs religion. Instead of attempting to correct the poster, address the audience and show the lies as lies made in an attempt to gain power. Call out the false equivalencies and the outright misstatements of facts without attempting to convert the writer, but to sway the audience.

Above all, vote and get your friends and family to vote. Help them plan to vote. Help them navigate the obstacles that will be put in the way of voting.

--Peter

Clearly, Dope is not representative of the bulk of the GOP. So I'm going to dismiss his response and carry on.

LOL.
So GOP is a Jonestown cult and literally half the country is a collection of crazies willing to burn down the country.

I don't think you understand what it means when you dehumanize your opponents like that...the signal it sends, and wo whom.

I hope you don't find out. Good luck.

Absolutely. I was a registered Republican right after I graduated high school.

Count me in that camp as well. Republican from the time I could vote until the party went BSC heading into the 2016 elections. But voted for some Democrats along the way. The loss of a bit of fiscal conservatism bothers me a bit, but the loss of sanity bothers me far more.

Bottom line, when the choice is sanity vs. insanity, I'm going with sanity every time. Once both parties embrace sanity again, then I can think a bit more about policy issues.

--Peter

So GOP is a Jonestown cult and literally half the country is a collection of crazies willing to burn down the country.

Yes. Fortunately, it’s noticeably less than half. Closer to 1/3 by my reckoning.

I don't think you understand what it means when you dehumanize your opponents

Only actual humans form cults. The cult members are very much human. Their blind following of Trump is nothing to rejoice about. Their lack of clear thinking saddens me, and likely a great many others. It also puts the country at great risk, including those in the cult.

I haven’t dehumanized anyone here. Telling the truth and coming to logical conclusions from the facts is not a dehumanizing process.

—Peter

I haven’t dehumanized anyone here. Telling the truth and coming to logical conclusions from the facts is not a dehumanizing process.

Yes, you have. Have the posts here are "tEh GoP iS a CuLt" offering zero substantive value.
When you put negative energy out there in the world, sooner or later it shows up where you don't want it to.

Good luck.

BTW, as something you folks should consider:

What are you going to do if Trump actually wins (and you've insulted people far past the point of no return). What then?

Dope1: I don't think you understand what it means when you dehumanize your opponents...

Sure we do.

Here's an example: “Nobody has any idea where these people are coming from. ... It’s poisoning the blood of our country.”

And another: “We pledge to you that we will root out the communists, Marxists, fascists, and the radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country.”

And another: “In some cases they're not people, in my opinion. But I'm not allowed to say that because the radical Left says that's a terrible thing to say. These are animals, OK, and we have to stop it.”

And another: “When you give a crazed, crying lowlife a break, and give her a job at the White House, I guess it just didn’t work out. Good work by General Kelly for quickly firing that dog!”

And another: “They’re poisoning the blood of our country. That’s what they’ve done. They poison mental institutions and prisons all over the world, not just in South America … but all over the world. They’re coming into our country from Africa, from Asia, all over the world.”

Dope1: I hope you don't find out.

We've already found out. Just look at yourself. You spent years crying that Clinton belonged in prison for mishandling classified documents but now that it turned out that the convicted felon Donald Trump mishandled hundreds of physical top secret documents -- and personally removed them from the U.S. government and took them to Mar-a-Lago -- you can't bring yourself to even criticize his behavior let alone call for him to leave the presidential race or -- heaven forbid -- say that he belongs in prison.

Because you're in a cult.

You know who thinks everyone else is cray-cray?

Crazy people.

Good luck.

I don't think you understand what it means when you dehumanize your opponents like that...the signal it sends, and wo whom.

LOL.. It's almost like he called them criminals drug dealers mentally ill prison escapees loser and suckers vermin poisoning the blood of america.

Gimme a break.

Dope: Yes, you have. Have the posts here are "tEh GoP iS a CuLt" offering zero substantive value.

Do you mean "half"? And shouldn't the accusation be half of your posts are "the GOP is a cult"? So you jump from the individual to the group to justify the individual accusation of dehumanization - an invalid argument by itself. And his statement that a cult is made up of humans ( similar) is true. It appears you are pretty fuzzy on what dehumanization is. It means what is says, that we see the person as not human. Saying a person is in a cult doesn't imply in any way that the person is less than human.

There was a belief system for a long time that blacks were less than human. Part of it was based on a bad interpretation of a bible story. They were seen as a species somewhere between an ape and a human. We could talk to them, they learned the same way we did, they invented things and made strides in the sciences, etc., but still we saw them as not quite human - a lesser animal. Being in a cult in no way approaches that - isn't even close to the door. We see people in a cult as being very human - and they can be deprogrammed.

This is something you do continually, make false accusations based on poor understanding of the subject, with flimsy reasoning that can be torn asunder by anyone with a sound mind, but it makes no dent in your world view.

Cult: noun: cult; plural noun: cults

a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object

Why, it's almost as if your group has a veneration and devotion directed toward Trump. Don't bother talking DeSantis, that's just trying to throw us off, you're all in on Trump, but you want an escape avenue of he loses - because you know that when he loses everything comes home to roost.

When you put negative energy out there in the world, sooner or later it shows up where you don't want it to.

What about all the negative energy you pump out by false accusations, misunderstandings, and misinformation? Never think they'll be a reckoning?

It appears you are pretty fuzzy on what dehumanization is.

Give the guy a break. That's the buzz word of the month. Well, from quite a few months ago. His assignment was to use it in a sentence. He finally managed to accomplish that. I applaud him for using it mostly correctly. He concocted a false statement, but the word was indeed used correctly in the sentence.

--Peter <== remembering that "amuse" used to be part of the mission statement.

Saying a person is in a cult doesn't imply in any way that the person is less than human.

...

We see people in a cult as being very human - and they can be deprogrammed.

Absolutely. I have resisted saying it, but I'm grudgingly coming to the point where I will have no choice. They exhibit all the hallmarks of a cult (like Scientology, the FLDS, etc). We want to try to rescue them, not dehumanize them. Getting out of a cult is difficult, and a very serious thing. I don't want to trivialize it.

Hopefully, when Trump expires his heirs won't inherit the cult. It will just fade away. But, frankly, Don Jr would be stupid to let that happen if he can avoid it. It could generate lots of money for him. L Ron Hubbard is gone, but his monstrosity of a cult remains.

Give the guy a break. That's the buzz word of the month. Well, from quite a few months ago. His assignment was to use it in a sentence. He finally managed to accomplish that. I applaud him for using it mostly correctly. He concocted a false statement, but the word was indeed used correctly in the sentence.


Lulzies. I had hopes that you might be different, but it seems not.

Game on, player.

This is something you do continually, make false accusations based on poor understanding of the subject, with flimsy reasoning that can be torn asunder by anyone with a sound mind, but it makes no dent in your world view.

Dope has informed the boards on which he posts his diatribes that he is the recipient of multiple degrees; a masters in gaslighting, and a phd for strawmen.

Yes. Fortunately, it’s noticeably less than half. Closer to 1/3 by my reckoning.

you may want to try a recount.
~80% of registered republicans support trump, and +99% of GOP pols. to me, that is the 'GOP', full stop.
there is no need to delve into policy nuance, any vote and support for trump is enough evidence of 'cultiness'.

some good news :
- #dems > #GOP
- not all GOP will vote
- never-trump GOP > never-biden Dem
- independents actual voting record since 2016

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/favorab...

you may want to try a recount.
~80% of registered republicans support trump,

Yep. But voting registration runs about 1/3 each for Republican, Democrat, and independent.

So that’s roughly 1/3 of the country that has lost its collective mind. Hence my number above.

—Peter

agree, ~33% eligible voters.
seem improbable to dispute up\down by much until 6 nov.

largest cohort of nonfinancial mass delusion in u.s. history since ww2 ?

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