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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝 SILVER
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Number: of 4356 
Subject: Non-Mag7 screen
Date: 08/13/2025 3:48 AM
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No. of Recommendations: 31
Everybody knows that if you weren't in the S&P 500 in the last several years, and particularly in the very largest stocks that dominated it, then you've probably been doing worse for it.

A link on the Berkshire board mentions a previous index-tracker advocate saying pleasant things about the S&P Equal Weight index, which I have long been a fan of, on the basis of too much concentration lately.
This post https://www.shrewdm.com/MB?pid=83806464 ...pointing to this blog article... https://stansberryresearch.com/whitney-tilsons-dai...


So I was thinking, it is still possible to do OK among the very big, but not gigantic stocks? Or will you keep getting your head handed to you if you avoid the few supergigacaps?

Here's a screen. Value Line, since that's what I have handy, though it shouldn't matter TOO much other than the usual comments about different sources of ROE figures.

I started with the S&P 500 stocks. My database doesn't have that directly, so I used the 500 largest market cap US-domiciled stocks as a very close proxy.
Of those, take the smallest 490 by market cap.
Of those, take top 10 by ROE. That's it.

The ROE figure I used is Value Line's "Return on Shareholders Equity", which is updated only annually, so though I looked at a monthly trade cycle, the turnover is very low. One stock swap per month. (you can cut that down to 0.75 swaps per month with top 10 HTD 12, which is less work and performs better if you assume trading costs). These are all S&P 500 stocks, so trading costs are close to zero.

The screen beat the S&P by 6.6%/year without trading costs 1997-2024, or by 5.5%/year if you use data from 2003 (gigacaps were a notoriously bad idea in the tech bear, which skews the result).

And more notably, consider the performance since the top 10 really pulled away from the pack around 2015 or so: Of the last 132 monthly-cycle rolling years in my test starting with calendar 2013, the screen beat the S&P in all but 9 rolling years. In backtest, anyway. CAGR advantage in those years a rather implausible 7.6%/year. I would not believe a result like that can be achieved, but it's certainly a good omen.

Though all screens have issues, and in particular backtests with as few as 10 stocks, there is perhaps a general investing insight that the high ROE firms in the S&P, but outside the giants, are probably a good hunting ground.
The current picks would probably be something like this (don't ask my why I pasted 18):
KMB CLX IRM HD MA AMGN NTAP MSI GDDY FTNT SYY MMM KLAC LII ITW ORCL LMT LLY

The average ten year total return among those picks is 17.6%/year, so it isn't a screen that's picking dogs. There is still money to be made outside the Magnificents.


Possible modification: In recent years the S&P 500 contains around 25 very fine firms with essentially infinite ROEs. They make a positive current EPS with negative book value: they don't need any net assets at all in order to make money, like YUM. Unfortunately this gets naively calculated as a negative ROE, which means they never get picked by the screen sort despite having excellent overall performance. If you replace the ROE sort figure for that category of firm (ROE<0, Current EPS>0, TTM EPS>0) as reported with (say) a fixed 100% proxy ROE, they would be allowed to make the cut.

Jim
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Author: rayvt   😊 😞
Number: of 4356 
Subject: Re: Non-Mag7 screen
Date: 08/13/2025 11:17 AM
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... there is perhaps a general investing insight that the high ROE firms in the S&P, but outside the giants, are probably a good hunting ground.

This is similar to a screen you posted on the old TMF board (R.I.P.)
"Take only the 90% of the stocks closest to their 52-week high.
Take the top 100 by ROE ...
and those with earnings >0 and book value is < 0.
then of those, top 25 by 5 Yr sales Growth.
"



S&P 500 stocks, take the smallest 490 by market cap.
Of those, take top 10 by ROE.
KMB CLX IRM HD MA AMGN NTAP MSI GDDY FTNT SYY MMM KLAC LII ITW ORCL LMT LLY


Using the 8/13/2025 data from barcharts for the S&P500,
If you replace the ROE sort figure for that category of firm (ROE<0, Current EPS>0, TTM EPS>0) as reported with (say) a fixed 100% proxy ROE, they would be allowed to make the cut.

There are 29 of these.
None of them would make the cut. The #10 stock is GDDY with 189.42 ROE%

You'd probably need to make another sort of these 39, maybe 1 yr or 5 yr sales growth.
But then, CLX (#4 by ROE%) would not make the cut as it's 5Y rev growth% is only 5.7% making it #34.

BTW, IRM is one of those with negative ROE% and BV.

Or will you keep getting your head handed to you if you avoid the few supergigacaps?

For the last few years, the supergigacaps were the place to be. They skunked everything else. That won't last forever, though.
Probably.

Worse, I recall a Ken Fisher column in Forbes somewhere in the early 2000's which said that the supercaps were the place to be. That's about 25 years now, except maybe for the 2008/2009 bear.


-------

Ah, LLY. One of my screen picks of 5/28/2024. The worst performing stock of the 10, down -18.4%. The only one that is down. The next worst one is up +17.5%
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Author: SteadyAim   😊 😞
Number: of 4356 
Subject: Re: Non-Mag7 screen
Date: 08/13/2025 6:03 PM
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They make a positive current EPS with negative book value: they don't need any net assets at all in order to make money, like YUM. Unfortunately this gets naively calculated as a negative ROE

Could you invert the ROE to get "equity per return" and then look for the lowest value, a bit like using earnings yield instead of p/e? Would that give you a valid ordering through positive and negative values?

You'd have to screen for EPS>0 and maybe check the results to make sure any odd ones aren't included.

SA
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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝 SILVER
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Number: of 4356 
Subject: Re: Non-Mag7 screen
Date: 08/14/2025 7:38 AM
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Could you invert the ROE to get "equity per return" and then look for the lowest value, a bit like using earnings yield instead of p/e?

That would certainly be the right way to express it.

I don't calculate the ROE (or its inverse, which I guess is assets-to-profit ratio) myself because I have seen so many screens produce seemingly excellent results with the ROE field from VL, which doesn't seem to match last fiscal (or TTM) net income / shareholders' equity. I'm not sure what other adjustments they do. Eliminating extraordinary items? Year to year smoothing? Dunno.

But sure, you could easily do that inversion for the negative book crowd.

For any firms in that category, I like to try to make sure that they really are good, not bad firms with a data quirk. I'd check for firms where stated ROE is negative, net income is positive, book value per share is negative, "Current EPS" positive, and maybe even projected EPS growth rate positive. The goal is to eliminate any duds that had an anomalously profitable period, for example selling off their only factory at a profit.

The more interesting question you raise is whether (say) $1 of earnings on mildly negative book is better than $1 earnings on extremely negative book. I have always used the simplifying assumption that they're all equally good. There are basically two types of firm in the negative book category: those that have such sustainable earnings with low assets needed that they eventually pay out all their equity as dividends, sometimes getting cheap debt from bond buyers who know their earnings are sustainable. Coke, say. The other category is firms that had a big whopping loss in the past which wiped out equity. Some of them might be good, but certainly not what you desire in an investment.

Another way to sort among these would be to look at ROCTE, return on tangible capital employed. Sometimes calculated as EBIT/(Net Plant + Working Capital - Excess Cash). I define excess cash as max(0, Cash - 3*(Total Current Liabilities)), on the theory that cash far beyond the working capital scale is probably not needed to produce the earnings. However this sort wouldn't mix in with the firms a meaningful traditional ROE. You'd have to do two sorts, and not be sure how to mix them.

Jim
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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝 SILVER
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Number: of 4356 
Subject: Re: Non-Mag7 screen
Date: 08/14/2025 8:05 AM
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PS, the reason I looked into this and posted the screen.

Right now the giants have been the place to be, for a long time. The concentration is getting worrisome for those who believe in any degree of normalcy returning, but the market can remain (what some would call) irrational for longer than you can stand it. If they remain the only place to "keep up" and do well, then switching away from them too early is the same as being wrong--you risk a long stretch of underperforming, which is both maddening and not great for the pocketbook.

So the idea here is to have your cake and eat it too...if this screen worked as advertised, you could switch to that and still do well even if the giants continue to soar for years more...it removes the need of calling the relative top for one group versus another, since it does well anyway. Relative to cap weight index, specifically.

Sometimes subset A is best, sometimes subset B is best, so most folks want to be in the right one. But if subset C is pretty good all the time, there is no need to gamble on timing your switches.

Emphasis on "if", of course.

Jim
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Author: bacon   😊 😞
Number: of 4356 
Subject: Re: Non-Mag7 screen
Date: 08/14/2025 9:05 AM
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Could you invert the ROE to get "equity per return"....

First, I'm not a GTR1 user; it's beyond me.

Would it be possible to create a universe of stocks with negative ROE and then apply these rules to get a usable list?

Eric Hines
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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝 SILVER
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Number: of 4356 
Subject: Re: Non-Mag7 screen
Date: 08/14/2025 10:16 AM
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Would it be possible to create a universe of stocks with negative ROE and then apply these rules to get a usable list?

I assume so, though I haven't done so.

I have created screens for negative-book-positive-earnings firms in the past. But again, with the VL database since that's what I have handy.


I did a simple screen simply looking for these (book<0, ttm eps>0, current eps>0, proj eps growth>0), then did a final sort on absolute size of cash pile, yet another way to try to avoid true duds.
Top 5 monthly 2007-2024 CAGR 18 vs S&P 11. Beat the market before,during, and after the credit crunch: risk 3/4 of SPY based on my DDD3 metric. This demonstrates that they seem to be, on average, good picks.

Some of them are considered famously reliable businesses. Moody's, Coke, YUM, PM, Dell. Domino's and Papa John, not sure why.

The problem is that there aren't that many, especially more than a decade ago. So it isn't a statistically huge ocean from which to go fishing.

Jim
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Author: Mrg5a   😊 😞
Number: of 4356 
Subject: Re: Non-Mag7 screen
Date: 08/14/2025 10:25 AM
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I was able to create something similar here

https://stockanalysis.com/stocks/screener/

In Index
SP500

Market Cap
Under 1T

Return on Equity (5Y)

Return on Equity

Could probably sort by 5Y ROE (smoother perhaps?)

It approximates Mungofitchs results pretty well
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Author: lizgdal 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 4356 
Subject: Re: Non-Mag7 screen
Date: 08/14/2025 1:52 PM
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The screen beat the S&P by 6.6%/year without trading costs 1997-2024

A gtr1 version confirms the OP results. Results from 19961231 to 20241231.

Screen   CAGR  GSD
notMag7 15.9 19
S5T 9.7 18
S5TE 10.6 21


https://gtr1.net/2013/?~notMag7_20250813_mungofitc...

(Changing the screen to pick negative equity stocks decreases CAGR.)
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Author: Labadal   😊 😞
Number: of 4356 
Subject: Re: Non-Mag7 screen
Date: 08/14/2025 5:47 PM
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Right now the giants have been the place to be, for a long time. The concentration is getting worrisome for those who believe in any degree of normalcy returning, but the market can remain (what some would call) irrational for longer than you can stand it. If they remain the only place to "keep up" and do well, then switching away from them too early is the same as being wrong--you risk a long stretch of underperforming...

Mike Green at Simplify Asset Management has been making the rounds with an interesting theory. The upshot is that, due to passive/active market dynamics, he expects the giants to continue to get more and more overvalued until some point when it stops, which could mark a sudden dramatic reversal.

Here's a recent interview of Green:
https://youtu.be/URUA5FoAQOE?si=LGeSoMuXxzEI-a6W
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Author: RAMc   😊 😞
Number: of 16623 
Subject: Re: Non-Mag7 screen
Date: 08/14/2025 10:22 PM
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In Jan of '24 I posted a blend of ROE and YEY noting that they complemented each other. Thought I'd see how a blend of notMag7 and YEY would do. Here is an attempt to blend lizgdal's Non-Mag7 with YEY

notMag7 '1987 - '25 CAGR 14.2, SAWR 10.3 MDD -44.5
Blend with YEY CAGR 18.5, SAWR 11.7 MDD -44.6

https://gtr1.net/2013/blend.cgi?!!QlpoMTFBWSZTWfmu...
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